To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
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21-11-2013, 01:17 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
Oh it's not that hard being a girl. Mostly we all should accept that we female folk bought into the advertising machine eons ago. We are influenced, nothing more, nothing less to think about our appearance a certain way. Men buy into this as well. Curvy bodacious blonde propped on side of a sports car? The symbol of sexiness & advertising flexing its muscles. Nothing more, nothing less.
Personally, I'm all for the glamour and the magic it creates and the environment I may enjoy because of it all. Totally fun hobby that I can take or leave at my own pleasure. Hair done? check. Hair not done? Check. Legs shaved? Check. *shrug* legs not shaved>? Check.
Totally my decision day in and day out. Check check.

excuse me............ I'm gonna go color my hair now. Why? Because I bloody well can. lol And that's that.


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21-11-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 01:17 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Oh it's not that hard being a girl. Mostly we all should accept that we female folk bought into the advertising machine eons ago. We are influenced, nothing more, nothing less to think about our appearance a certain way. Men buy into this as well. Curvy bodacious blonde propped on side of a sports car? The symbol of sexiness & advertising flexing its muscles. Nothing more, nothing less.
Personally, I'm all for the glamour and the magic it creates and the environment I may enjoy because of it all. Totally fun hobby that I can take or leave at my own pleasure. Hair done? check. Hair not done? Check. Legs shaved? Check. *shrug* legs not shaved>? Check.
Totally my decision day in and day out. Check check.

excuse me............ I'm gonna go color my hair now. Why? Because I bloody well can. lol And that's that.


squeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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21-11-2013, 01:32 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 01:13 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 01:10 PM)Dom Wrote:  It's a matter of superficiality versus depth.
In your opinion. You believe that depth cannot coexist with a physical attraction apparently?

Of course it can. What I am saying is that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. You say that beauty can only exist if a certain amount of alterations to the body are performed.

That is patently false.

Beauty is a matter of taste and preference. Just because you prefer a certain ideal, that does not mean all men think that way. Your personal preferences do not define beauty, even if your peers agree. That just makes you belong to a group of people who happen to think physical alterations are necessary.

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21-11-2013, 01:36 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 11:48 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  My guys friends are always commenting on the shape, colour, texture and thickness of their beards.

That's not right. Dodgy

Any guy who obsesses over their beard is doing it wrong. The worst are those stupid skinny beards that actually take more work to maintain than being clean shaven. I know this thread is about women, but since the topic of beards came up I'll take the opportunity to make a public service announcement to my fellow men: don't be this guy.

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21-11-2013, 01:39 PM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2013 01:43 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 01:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 01:13 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  In your opinion. You believe that depth cannot coexist with a physical attraction apparently?

Of course it can. What I am saying is that beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. You say that beauty can only exist if a certain amount of alterations to the body are performed.

That is patently false.

Beauty is a matter of taste and preference. Just because you prefer a certain ideal, that does not mean all men think that way. Your personal preferences do not define beauty, even if your peers agree. That just makes you belong to a group of people who happen to think physical alterations are necessary.

No, I am not saying that. Or at least I'm not meaning to. I completely understand that everybody has different tastes and preferences, to not acknowledge that would be idiotic. What I'm saying is that from what I've observed, women alter their bodies/appearances in specific, socially driven ways, that I, as a male, would not feel comfortable doing.

I'm not saying the only way to be beautiful is to do these things, but I am saying that the pressure to do these things affects both how men see them, and how women feel about them. My opening post described things that I personally do find beautiful. No they are not the only things I find beautiful. No, my gf doesn't shave her legs every week, and I don't give her crap about it.

But at the same time, she would never show her legs in public if they were hairy. THAT'S the pressure I'm talking about.

I'm addressing the idea that women "should" shave their legs (and other similar body-sculpting expectations). If you can't agree that that Idea is very apparent in American culture then like I said, we disagree on this.
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21-11-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
Beards, yeah, and all the effort that goes into other (once) fashionable stuff:



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21-11-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 02:27 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I would say in some places there is too much pressure put on high school girls to be sexy, skinny, or perfect. Outside of high school (and maybe middle school), I am comfortable with who I am and how I look and I know there are guys who like the kind of girl I am. Everyone has their own preferences, most adults (I think) seek out people who prefer them rather than change to meet someone's preferences. If that makes sense.

I think I observe more women changing to meet someone's preferences. I think this idea of "change to meet someone's preferences" is very much a double standard. I often see it to be more of an expectation of women than of men.

I have also observed more men than women, being more comfortable with who they are and how they look - they seem to "know" (or have just decided) there are women who like the kind of guy they are. When women are similarly comfortable, I wonder if the "acceptance" of this behavior is the same.

I think some relevant questions might be:
Are the grooming expectations for men and women, different? And why?
and
Is it possible human beings will come to adapt to the rise of females who are comfortable not doing all the grooming.

***
It is possible that "grooming" is an evolutionary trait. Prehistorically and still, with our simian cousins, females do it constantly and possibly more than males because of the need to keep filth and flees at bay for their babies to be free from infection and anemia.

It's not just, "Ew, that guy stinks and is full of flees, I'm not fucking him." ... it's more like, "Ew, I gotta clean that guy up and keep myself clean, or the kid is gonna die."

These traits are passed on socially and could very well be instilled along neuro-pathways in the behavioral brain. The behavioral brain for the male is different that the behavioral brain for the female. It's a chemical thang.

In light of modern medicine and changing social desires, the modern human being may have a lot of adjusting of neuro-pathways to do. Infection is no longer the danger it used to be and we have our flees pretty well contained. Well... some of us do. Dodgy

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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21-11-2013, 02:20 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 12:53 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  ...
And please, introduce me to a guy who doesn't think that it would suck to have to shave his legs on a regular basis. I'm betting that is a small minority.

That's why I wax.

Just thought I'd chip in with that.

Smile

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21-11-2013, 02:40 PM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2013 03:24 PM by amyb.)
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
Quote:
You don't hear [Pam Anderson] complaining that she made a career thanks to her looks, or that she demands to be judged first on her intellect.
I don't think the Pam Anderson comparison works. She's an actress/model, and that means she's certainly where she is based on her looks. Hilary Clinton is not an actress, and her looks are totally irrelevant to her job. That's why I mention it. Pam Anderson's looks ARE relevant to her job; Hillary Clinton's looks are not.

Quote:Your observations are correct but I think you are missing a big picture.

I'm not saying that society is not influencing what we consider beautiful, I am saying that that is inevitable , society will always set the standards of beauty or morals or whatever, and there will always be people who fall short.
You in part already explained that.
I wasn't suggesting it was ever likely to change, in fact I was giving reasons why women might find it easier to conform to those standards because they aren't likely to change (and if they do, they'll be replaced with other standards).

Quote:What you fail to consider, in my opinion, is that if today things were different it will just be another group that falls short of societal expectations.
Like skinny girls back in the day, and they would be "complaining" about the social standards with the same rhetoric.
If having a Barbara Streisand nose was considered beautiful , girls with small noses would be made fun of. Plastic surgeons would just be making noses bigger instead of smaller.
I don't know why you say I fail to consider it, when I made that exact same point a few times in my post (how fat used to be beautiful, for example, and thin/tan used to be undesirable).

Quote:I don't think that's true , at least not that it is their "only value" .

But if you want to go there , men are thought from an early age that their only value is one of a work horse.

In some ways it sucks to be a woman, in some ways it sucks to be a man.
I agree, but since the topic is about women, I was mainly talking about women. Certainly, there are standards of beauty and expectations (reasonable or not) for men, as well.

Quote:And asking of the society to fit around you is just...
Again, not sure where you are getting this from what I posted. I suggested it makes sense for women to conform because it makes their lives easier. How is that asking society to conform to fit me? I merely stated that I don't much give a damn about society, since I'm asexual/aromantic and a hermit and don't much care if any men/women find me attractive, anyway. If I did, perhaps I would shave and wear makeup, if I had something to gain from doing so,.

But yeah, what cjlr said about social cohesion and hunter-gatherers. It was in the individual's best interest to conform.
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21-11-2013, 02:52 PM
RE: To be a woman: Sometimes I think it must suck!
(21-11-2013 01:00 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  I wholly don't understand, perhaps our cultures are very different, but the pressure on men to do anything to be considered "normal" men PALE in comparison to what women have to do.

Wait, what?

Social gender roles are pretty unforgiving, irrespective of particular gender...

(21-11-2013 01:00 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  What do you feel men need to do to be considered normal men because of social pressure? If they don't do these things are they judged? And keep in mind I'm mostly speaking of physical changes one has to make to their natural self.

There aren't as many superficial aesthetic things, that's true. Not that "don't be fat and dirty" are somehow gender specific!

I think in large part you notice what other people do, without thinking as much about what you are doing.

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