To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
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28-05-2015, 11:54 AM
To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
Christianity is built on the foundation of Judaism. IMHO, I don't think that Christianity can stand on it's own. While I've seen many people - apologetics in particular - focus on whether Jesus was raised from the dead and what happened after Pentecost, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go back further and try determine if the Jewish faith in the bronze and iron ages was what the bible says it was. If the Jewish patriarchs are shown with a high probability to actually be polytheists, or if both the patriarchs and OT God both acknowledge the existence of other gods, then doesn't that make the NT and all of the Christian church history since Pentecost moot?

Anyone think similarly, or do you think Christianity can stand alone and both need to be studied in more depth to determine if true or false?
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28-05-2015, 12:02 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
(28-05-2015 11:54 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Christianity is built on the foundation of Judaism. IMHO, I don't think that Christianity can stand on it's own. While I've seen many people - apologetics in particular - focus on whether Jesus was raised from the dead and what happened after Pentecost, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go back further and try determine if the Jewish faith in the bronze and iron ages was what the bible says it was. If the Jewish patriarchs are shown with a high probability to actually be polytheists, or if both the patriarchs and OT God both acknowledge the existence of other gods, then doesn't that make the NT and all of the Christian church history since Pentecost moot?

Anyone think similarly, or do you think Christianity can stand alone and both need to be studied in more depth to determine if true or false?

Christianity can't stand on its own because it takes many of its cues from the O.T. The N.T. needs the O.T. to show why and how Jesus came to be. Of course, some christians like to warp passages and say that the O.T. was talking about Jesus when it wasn't. There is some evidence of Jewish patriarchs being polytheists. There is mention in the O.T. of gods plural and other passages involving worship of other deities i.e.the golden calf (Exodus 32). There are also several references to the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation myth).
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28-05-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
It's the conclusion I came from since the NT is heavily invested in references to and stories from the OT. I think 1&2 Samuel and 1&2 Kings plus Judges may be good to include in any studies too. I've seen some presentations from Joel Baden who demonstrated that King David comes across as a caricature that was created thru propaganda.

It's like when Jesus talked about the sign of Jonah when he was "predicting" his death and resurrection, why reference a story that looks so obviously fictional? Seems like there was no concern for future readers and cultures...

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28-05-2015, 12:15 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
(28-05-2015 12:12 PM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  It's the conclusion I came from since the NT is heavily invested in references to and stories from the OT. I think 1&2 Samuel and 1&2 Kings plus Judges may be good to include in any studies too. I've seen some presentations from Joel Baden who demonstrated that King David comes across as a caricature that was created thru propaganda.

It's like when Jesus talked about the sign of Jonah when he was "predicting" his death and resurrection, why reference a story that looks so obviously fictional? Seems like there was no concern for future readers and cultures...

ETA: Just got my 2nd Star!!!

Jesus makes many references to the O.T. He needed to solidify his place as the messiah (to make it believable). Of course, that's if you believe Jesus existed at all--which some scholars doubt. Many of the O.T. passages are deliberately taken out of context re: Jesus in the N.T.
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28-05-2015, 12:23 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
(28-05-2015 11:54 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Christianity is built on the foundation of Judaism. IMHO, I don't think that Christianity can stand on it's own. While I've seen many people - apologetics in particular - focus on whether Jesus was raised from the dead and what happened after Pentecost, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go back further and try determine if the Jewish faith in the bronze and iron ages was what the bible says it was. If the Jewish patriarchs are shown with a high probability to actually be polytheists, or if both the patriarchs and OT God both acknowledge the existence of other gods, then doesn't that make the NT and all of the Christian church history since Pentecost moot?

Anyone think similarly, or do you think Christianity can stand alone and both need to be studied in more depth to determine if true or false?

It depends on the particular brand of apologetics being used. A lot of people focus on all the happy parts of Jesus and are willing to jettison pretty much anything else from the Bible if it doesn't jive with their particular view of Christianity. My wife, for example, doesn't believe in hell, and believes the Bible was written by people who felt compelled to, but not that God was specifically ghost-writing it. She sees the shortcomings of God in the OT as the shortcomings of the writers and their culture.

That being said, if you're the type of person who believes the events of the OT to be largely true, then you absolutely have to take it into account when looking at Christianity. People like to dismiss things as "being in the OT and not counting" while claiming God is steadfast and unchanging. Cognitive dissonance, you are a cruel bitch.
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28-05-2015, 12:58 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
The fan fiction sux, the original production sux; how about we just make nothing out of nothing and leave it at that? Tongue

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28-05-2015, 05:05 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
I just recently started looking into the origins of the OT god and have lot more reading to do. But so far what I've found is that Yahweh Sabaoth was a war god and one of seventy other gods in a pantheon with El being the high god. The Israelites chose Yahweh to help lead them in battle. Even the Bible calls him a war god. He wasn't a very good war god since men with chariots could beat him. And a lot of the battles were just mythical stories.

Many Israelites still worshiped others gods and the calf was a symbol of El. It wasn't until after the supposed exile that Yahweh became the supreme god and all other gods qualities were given to him. The Israelites even had Yahweh married to his mom for a while.

I'm still reading into all this but it seems that all of Judaism, Christianity and Islam stem from the same pagan gods. It makes sense that the old testament good would be a war god And u can see why most jews did not see Jesus as their messiah because, he was no warrior.

I've been reading "the great transformation: the beginning of our religious traditions" by Karen Armstrong.
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28-05-2015, 05:12 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
(28-05-2015 05:05 PM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  I just recently started looking into the origins of the OT god and have lot more reading to do. But so far what I've found is that Yahweh Sabaoth was a war god and one of seventy other gods in a pantheon with El being the high god. The Israelites chose Yahweh to help lead them in battle. Even the Bible calls him a war god. He wasn't a very good war god since men with chariots could beat him. And a lot of the battles were just mythical stories.

Many Israelites still worshiped others gods and the calf was a symbol of El. It wasn't until after the supposed exile that Yahweh became the supreme god and all other gods qualities were given to him. The Israelites even had Yahweh married to his mom for a while.

I'm still reading into all this but it seems that all of Judaism, Christianity and Islam stem from the same pagan gods. It makes sense that the old testament good would be a war god And u can see why most jews did not see Jesus as their messiah because, he was no warrior.

I've been reading "the great transformation: the beginning of our religious traditions" by Karen Armstrong.

Never read that book, but despite what Islam claims, Allah developed from a different Babylonian god than Yahweh, (Sin). Never realized that Ashera was Yahweh's mother also, but she was worshiped as his consort in a number of centers, (and there's archeological proof of that). The roots of Christianity are in ancient Judaism, in a way, but rest much more squarely in Apocalyptic (much later), Judaism.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-05-2015, 05:32 PM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
(28-05-2015 05:12 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 05:05 PM)Ocean theRAPIST Wrote:  I just recently started looking into the origins of the OT god and have lot more reading to do. But so far what I've found is that Yahweh Sabaoth was a war god and one of seventy other gods in a pantheon with El being the high god. The Israelites chose Yahweh to help lead them in battle. Even the Bible calls him a war god. He wasn't a very good war god since men with chariots could beat him. And a lot of the battles were just mythical stories.

Many Israelites still worshiped others gods and the calf was a symbol of El. It wasn't until after the supposed exile that Yahweh became the supreme god and all other gods qualities were given to him. The Israelites even had Yahweh married to his mom for a while.

I'm still reading into all this but it seems that all of Judaism, Christianity and Islam stem from the same pagan gods. It makes sense that the old testament good would be a war god And u can see why most jews did not see Jesus as their messiah because, he was no warrior.

I've been reading "the great transformation: the beginning of our religious traditions" by Karen Armstrong.

Never read that book, but despite what Islam claims, Allah developed from a different Babylonian god than Yahweh, (Sin). Never realized that Ashera was Yahweh's mother also, but she was worshiped as his consort in a number of centers, (and there's archeological proof of that). The roots of Christianity are in ancient Judaism, in a way, but rest much more squarely in Apocalyptic (much later), Judaism.

From what I've been reading both Sin (the moon god) and Yahweh were both apart of the same pantheon but I could be wrong.
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29-05-2015, 01:56 AM
RE: To evaluate Christianity, is the true key the Pentateuch?
(28-05-2015 11:54 AM)Plan 9 from OS Wrote:  Christianity is built on the foundation of Judaism. IMHO, I don't think that Christianity can stand on it's own. While I've seen many people - apologetics in particular - focus on whether Jesus was raised from the dead and what happened after Pentecost, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go back further and try determine if the Jewish faith in the bronze and iron ages was what the bible says it was. If the Jewish patriarchs are shown with a high probability to actually be polytheists, or if both the patriarchs and OT God both acknowledge the existence of other gods, then doesn't that make the NT and all of the Christian church history since Pentecost moot?

Anyone think similarly, or do you think Christianity can stand alone and both need to be studied in more depth to determine if true or false?

It could stand on it's own I think, as it's matter of compelling narrative rather than logic or continuity. OT has no bearing on faith at least where I live - OT and NT happen to be part of Bible, but hardly anyone cares about OT tyrant god and tenous connection between two texts.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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