To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
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16-01-2016, 01:51 PM
To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
Assuming that God is mysterious & works in mysterious ways is true. Why would it be ok for him to communicate in mysterious ways too? Is there a passage from your religious scriptures that states that God "communicates" in mysterious ways? How did you come to understand that he communicates in mysterious ways (assuming this is what you believe?)

Communicate: to impart or transmit (information or knowledge) to someone

Of course I am assuming here he is communicating for the purpose of being understood. If not then...
Why would God possibly communicate something to us that he doesn't want us to understand?
If he did & we understood it would that mean we defied God?
If he did it so only a few could get the meaning, then why is it our fault if we get classed with the other section?
If he does communicate properly and we just don't understand it because of our own ignorance then why would you consider this as "God communicating mysteriously?", because he obviously didn't do that.

The fact is, if you believe in a God that is communicating with you, then the premise:
"God works in mysterious ways"
Does not follow the conclusion that
"God communicates in mysterious ways"

In other words
When I ask a question like "What does God mean by this?"
You cannot respond
"I don't know because God works in mysterious ways"

His mysterious ways has nothing to do with the way he communicates.
I'm not even going to bother to say "he is God, & therefore could find a better way to communicate in the first place"

It's just a completely invalid argument. It is being intellectually dishonest every time you say this.

So please stop for the sake of honesty at least

Please note: Mysterious doesn't mean unusual, it means unexplainable & incomprehensible.

Now, I'm going to tackle the issue of "God Works in mysterious ways"
Firstly, if you are going to make such a statement about God clearly it must have backing in your religious book. So tell me where did you read this in your religious book.
Secondly, assuming that you did actually find the words "God works in mysterious ways", what would you take that to mean? God's works shall always be "unexplainable & incomprehensible" in the past, present & future even by him? Or is it just at that point in time?
If it's always "unexplainable & incomprehensible" then how were you ever able to understand it to begin with. Did you defy God's law?
If it's temporarily "unexplainable & incomprehensible" then why use it as an argument to explain "how you could understand it but I can't". Obviously if you understood it the temporarily "unexplainable & incomprehensible" moment has passed. Are you suggesting that you once understood it but can't anymore? If you suddenly developed mental retardation then you cannot make the claim that your brain is still functioning the way it should be.
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16-01-2016, 02:02 PM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
Well explain Shane. I can see you have a lot of thought going on in your mind.

"God works in Mysterious ways." bit is just a go to, when a believer can't think of an answer.

You wont find it any where in the bible.

The earliest usage come from a Christian Hyme written in 1773. Written by William Cowper.




Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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18-01-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
(16-01-2016 02:02 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Well explain Shane. I can see you have a lot of thought going on in your mind.

"God works in Mysterious ways." bit is just a go to, when a believer can't think of an answer.

You wont find it any where in the bible.

The earliest usage come from a Christian Hyme written in 1773. Written by William Cowper.




It's also derived from Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
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18-01-2016, 08:26 AM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
The entire line of thinking goes against god wanting some type of relationship with humans.

If you want to ruin a relationship, do something inexplicable and then refuse to explain why you did it.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-01-2016, 12:00 PM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
(18-01-2016 08:26 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The entire line of thinking goes against god wanting some type of relationship with humans.

If you want to ruin a relationship, do something inexplicable and then refuse to explain why you did it.

That does not ruin, but rather enhances, certain relationships.
It is exactly the same as dealing with a three year old. They are not yet capable of grasping certain concepts, yet they have to be prevented from doing certain things for their own good (and often, the good of others). So parents have to occasionally do something that from the child's standpoint is inexplicable, and then simply refuse to explain it.

So we see what type of relationship is enhanced by this line of thinking: AUTHORITARIAN. You know, the sort of relationship a two-bit king somewhere would want with his peasants. I command, you obey without question. Hmmm, where else do we see that?

MILITARY

It is no accident that, historically, the more militaristic a society is, the more religious it usually is. For God and Country....
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20-01-2016, 01:56 PM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
(18-01-2016 07:57 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(16-01-2016 02:02 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Well explain Shane. I can see you have a lot of thought going on in your mind.

"God works in Mysterious ways." bit is just a go to, when a believer can't think of an answer.

You wont find it any where in the bible.

The earliest usage come from a Christian Hyme written in 1773. Written by William Cowper.




It's also derived from Isaiah 55:8-9

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

God higher than me? He'd better share.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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01-02-2016, 05:45 PM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
(20-01-2016 12:00 PM)coyote Wrote:  
(18-01-2016 08:26 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The entire line of thinking goes against god wanting some type of relationship with humans.

If you want to ruin a relationship, do something inexplicable and then refuse to explain why you did it.

That does not ruin, but rather enhances, certain relationships.
It is exactly the same as dealing with a three year old. They are not yet capable of grasping certain concepts, yet they have to be prevented from doing certain things for their own good (and often, the good of others). So parents have to occasionally do something that from the child's standpoint is inexplicable, and then simply refuse to explain it.

So we see what type of relationship is enhanced by this line of thinking: AUTHORITARIAN. You know, the sort of relationship a two-bit king somewhere would want with his peasants. I command, you obey without question. Hmmm, where else do we see that?

MILITARY

It is no accident that, historically, the more militaristic a society is, the more religious it usually is. For God and Country....
You totally miss the point.
When the child becomes an adult and learns the reason why his parents did what they did why would he be unable to explain it to other adults?
If we find the child (now grown up) doing the same thing their parents did and we asked them to explain how they know it's the right thing to do they are supposed to be able to explain it.
If they can't explain it then they are just guessing that it's the right thing to do.
Eg. Explain how exactly is eternal punishment an act of a merciful god.
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03-02-2016, 07:17 AM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
(20-01-2016 12:00 PM)coyote Wrote:  It is exactly the same as dealing with a three year old. They are not yet capable of grasping certain concepts, yet they have to be prevented from doing certain things for their own good (and often, the good of others). So parents have to occasionally do something that from the child's standpoint is inexplicable, and then simply refuse to explain it.

It's not exactly the same. To complete the analogy, give the parent magical powers they could use to make the three-year-old understand... and then have the parent refuse to use them.

The problem isn't that we can't understand; it's that God doesn't want us to. The thing one has to realize about omnipotence is that anything that happens only happens because God wants it to. This is tautologically true.
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03-02-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
(03-02-2016 07:17 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(20-01-2016 12:00 PM)coyote Wrote:  It is exactly the same as dealing with a three year old. They are not yet capable of grasping certain concepts, yet they have to be prevented from doing certain things for their own good (and often, the good of others). So parents have to occasionally do something that from the child's standpoint is inexplicable, and then simply refuse to explain it.

It's not exactly the same. To complete the analogy, give the parent magical powers they could use to make the three-year-old understand... and then have the parent refuse to use them.

The problem isn't that we can't understand; it's that God doesn't want us to. The thing one has to realize about omnipotence is that anything that happens only happens because God wants it to. This is tautologically true.

I remember, like it was yesterday, a time when I was about ten years old, lying in bed and just pleading with God to talk to me, whisper in my ear, whatever, just say something. I was taught to pray at night before I went to bed, and I guess I was tired of a one-way conversation. I wanted some feedback. I wanted to hear from him.

I knew that God never speaks back, but I truly believed that, if I just pleaded hard and long enough, he would treat me special and we would have this special relationship that no one else had. I must have learned from Sunday School that he had spoken to Moses, Abraham, Isaac and all the prophets. So why not me?

After a few days of no answer, I just gave up. I guess I wasn't special enough. Sad

Aw, to hell with him! Who needs a relationship with an insecure psychopath anyway! Laugh out load

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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03-02-2016, 10:06 AM
RE: To the Theists. God Work's in Mysterious ways?
(18-01-2016 08:26 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The entire line of thinking goes against god wanting some type of relationship with humans.

If you want to ruin a relationship, do something inexplicable and then refuse to explain why you did it.

I think it's the exact opposite, if you want to ruin a relationship devote yourself to justifying and explaining your actions. If you want preserve it just say your sorry. A dying marriage seems to be filled with an excessive amount of explanations.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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