To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
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08-01-2017, 11:09 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 10:58 PM)Wallisddj Wrote:  According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of sin

1. 1a : an offense against religious or moral law
2. b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food>
3. c : an often serious shortcoming : fault

Synonym Discussion of sin
offense, resentment, umbrage, pique, dudgeon, huff mean an emotional response to or an emotional state resulting from a slight or indignity. offense implies hurt displeasure <takes deep offense at racial slurs>. resentment suggests lasting indignation or ill will <harbored a lifelong resentment of his brother>. umbrage may suggest hurt pride, resentment, or suspicion of another's motives <took umbrage at the offer of advice>. pique applies to a transient feeling of wounded vanity <in a pique I foolishly declined the invitation>. dudgeon suggests an angry fit of indignation <stormed out of the meeting in high dudgeon>. huff implies a peevish short-lived spell of anger usually at a petty cause <in a huff he slammed the door>.

offense, sin, vice, crime, scandal mean a transgression of law. offense applies to the infraction of any law, rule, or code <at that school no offense went unpunished>. sin implies an offense against moral or religious law <the sin of blasphemy>. vice applies to a habit or practice that degrades or corrupts <regarded gambling as a vice>. crime implies a serious offense punishable by the law of the state <the crime of murder>. scandal applies to an offense that outrages the public conscience <a career ruined by a sex scandal>.

Okay. Why would you want to use a non-religious definition for "sin" to discuss it on an atheist forum?
What possible reasons (other than trolling) would you have for that conversation?
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08-01-2017, 11:09 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
double post
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08-01-2017, 11:11 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
Just stopped by to take a shit in this particular thread and to tell the Borg to choke on said shit.
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09-01-2017, 01:41 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2017 03:36 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 04:59 PM)Wallisddj Wrote:  To sum it all up:

1. You lack respect of me. You want me to fill volumes of pages with research I have done over the last 50 years.

Respect is earned not given. Also don't hide behind bullshit - if all mythologies speak of being human as sin then it shouldn't be hard to provide some short synopsis. Fact that you aren't even trying to do it is telling.

Quote:2. Filling pages and pages on this forums with just references to documents, videos, etc. is not only a waste of time, but I am sure that there is a "rule" against doing that.

Pages and pages? It seems to me that you're hiding your lack of knowledge behind alleged volume of your research. Also again no one calls for pages upon pages of stuff, it is you who don't want to provide data and hide behind such flimsy excuse.

Quote:3. Regarding the understanding part, in part, perhaps, it is not so much that you do not understand me as you refuse to understand me. This is called entrenchment, by the way.

To be honest I have trouble with understanding how one can be so deluded to think that everyone worship something.

Quote:And like I responded to the other "criitc": you have created yourself as your god. It is pure and simple. All is relatively psychological and philosophical, and you, too, apparently are lacking in both.

I've been called many things but never god.

I don't agree with your shit so I'm lacking in areas of philosophy and psychology? Nice defense mechanism you have here - those who don't agree with your meaninglessly wide definitions are lacking; problem is with them, not with you. Pathetic.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-01-2017, 01:50 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2017 12:39 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 05:32 PM)Wallisddj Wrote:  Why? Please explain position why you think that people cannot or have not created themselves as gods?

Posed as gods is a word I think you're looking for. Posed cause there is no known case of such "god" having supernatural powers. It's all myth like French and English kings and their healing touch.

Quote:Then perhaps we can better understand Hitler, all the Korean Kims, Pol Pot . . .

Hitler didn't think of himself as a god, even if messianic themese were used to announce his arrival [Richard Grunberger, A Social History of The Third Reich]. Hitler presented himself as someone carrying the will of god, you can see this even in this simple Wikipedia example - Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

With Kims you chosen better as they as far as I know (and I don't care enough to know much) present themselves as gods.

Lastly there is Pol Pot who wanted to return Cambodia to it's allegedly glorious past. But from my reading of Philip Short Pol Pot: Anatomy of a Nightmare he didn't pose as a god but rather history guided ruler.

Quote:Perhaps we should get psychological. You get hungry, you eat. But did you share?

It's kindergarten level psychology. I offer to share if I'm eating with family. I guess that makes me self-created, selfish god, am I right?

Quote:You are tired and want to sleep. Did you move someone else out of their sleeping area?

If you're living in a shack in third world country then it's possible. Otherwise I just use my bed.

Quote:You have an opinion, and you think: the first person who disagrees with me dies!

Projecting much?

Quote:Hmmm. No god-making here, huh?

No. Only your delusions. With this post you showed depths of your stupidity.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-01-2017, 01:57 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
The idea of sin is a manufactured piece of intangible shit that requires a religious person to tell you if you've stepped in it or not.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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09-01-2017, 04:42 AM (This post was last modified: 09-01-2017 04:47 AM by adey67.)
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
I'm a simple chap definitely not a debater and definitely not a learned academic but here's what I believe I know.....
I am an atheist I don't worship anything.
I adore my two sons but I do NOT worship them.
I adore science and the scientific method because it works but I do NOT worship either.
I covet money mainly because I don't have any, but I do NOT worship it.

I have left religion behind and I am a better person for doing so, my days of worshiping anything are OVER.
It really is that simple, no reams of text dissecting minute details and putting a certain spin on them, multiple posts hidden agenda or dubious research links required, just a modicum of common sense. Drinking Beverage
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09-01-2017, 05:35 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(09-01-2017 04:42 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I'm a simple chap definitely not a debater and definitely not a learned academic but here's what I believe I know.....
I am an atheist I don't worship anything.
I adore my two sons but I do NOT worship them.
I adore science and the scientific method because it works but I do NOT worship either.
I covet money mainly because I don't have any, but I do NOT worship it.

I have left religion behind and I am a better person for doing so, my days of worshiping anything are OVER.
It really is that simple, no reams of text dissecting minute details and putting a certain spin on them, multiple posts hidden agenda or dubious research links required, just a modicum of common sense. Drinking Beverage
So you worship all these things but in effort to hide it from yourself you label your worshiping as adoration. Also you created god of yourself.


Big Grin

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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09-01-2017, 05:48 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable hi for a theist to sin?
(09-01-2017 05:35 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(09-01-2017 04:42 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I'm a simple chap definitely not a debater and definitely not a learned academic but here's what I believe I know.....
I am an atheist I don't worship anything.
I adore my two sons but I do NOT worship them.
I adore science and the scientific method because it works but I do NOT worship either.
I covet money mainly because I don't have any, but I do NOT worship it.

I have left religion behind and I am a better person for doing so, my days of worshiping anything are OVER.
It really is that simple, no reams of text dissecting minute details and putting a certain spin on them, multiple posts hidden agenda or dubious research links required, just a modicum of common sense. Drinking Beverage
So you worship all these things but in effort to hide it from yourself you label your worshiping as adoration. Also you created god of yourself.


Big Grin

That's definitely what he's going to say for sure. We must be psychicTongue
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09-01-2017, 06:43 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 10:20 PM)Wallisddj Wrote:  We are not agreeing to definitions because the participants here wanting to restrict the vocabulary within a religious context.

No, the participants here want to restrict the vocabulary to one definition of a word at a time. Conflating multiple definitions and usages only serves to make clear communication impossible. Equivocation is not an argument.

Quote:However, when adjoining atheism into the discussion, we have to use the broader denotations and definitions.

No, we really don't. If we are discussing religious beliefs then words like 'sin' and 'worship' and 'faith' have meanings within a religious context that differ significantly from their use within a secular context. If you want to look at the way a religious person uses the words vs the way a secular person does then that could be interesting but simply saying that because the same word can be used there is some equivalence in meaning is just nonsense.

Quote:One can bandy about synonyms, but these tend to muddy the waters.

Only one person here is trying to muddy the waters.

Quote:It is better for the theist and the atheist to agree that "sin" is a transgression against a rule, law, ordinance, or even an accepted norm, irrespective of a deity.

That isn't what a theist means by that word though. The deity is an important part of the concept of sin for believers. If you remove that then the word loses meaning for them. For non-believers there is no deity involved but the word is used in a metaphorical way to imply transgressing a moral norm and often doesn't apply to minor infractions of civil laws.

Quote:Worship, too, must be expanded beyond the religious norms of rites and traditions. Our English is peppered with expanded meanings, such as "He practices his weight lifting program religiously."

Yes, it is. We have a colorful language that lets us express a lot with few words. Nobody (except maybe you) understands that sentence to mean that the person actually thinks their weights are gods but rather just that the zeal with which the person enjoys their workouts is similar to the zeal that devotees feel fro their religion. It is a metaphor, not an equivalence.

Quote:< a lot of unrelated crap about people having needs >

Yes, people need things in their lives to care about. Some focus almost exclusively on one thing while others have more varied tastes. Looking into why that seems to be the case and why people choose different things is a valid topic. Insisting that the literal use of "worship" for the religious and the metaphorical use of "worship" for secular means they are doing the same thing doesn't help make that point though.

Quote:Again, our English language is peppered with the words worship that have nothing to do with religion: "He worships the ground she walks on."

You appear to be unable to distinguish between the literal and the poetic uses of words. He isn't worshiping the ground and he isn't worshiping her in the same sense that a theist worships their god.

(08-01-2017 10:58 PM)Wallisddj Wrote:  According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Definition of sin

1. 1a : an offense against religious or moral law
2. b : an action that is or is felt to be highly reprehensible <it's a sin to waste food>
3. c : an often serious shortcoming : fault

Words have multiple definitions and how a word is used in context tells us which definition is intended by the speaker. The definitions may be related, even overlapping, but they are not identical and conflating them makes your message garbled.

Quote:Synonym Discussion of sin
offense, resentment, umbrage, pique, dudgeon, huff mean an emotional response to or an emotional state resulting from a slight or indignity. offense implies hurt displeasure <takes deep offense at racial slurs>. resentment suggests lasting indignation or ill will <harbored a lifelong resentment of his brother>. umbrage may suggest hurt pride, resentment, or suspicion of another's motives <took umbrage at the offer of advice>. pique applies to a transient feeling of wounded vanity <in a pique I foolishly declined the invitation>. dudgeon suggests an angry fit of indignation <stormed out of the meeting in high dudgeon>. huff implies a peevish short-lived spell of anger usually at a petty cause <in a huff he slammed the door>.

Words have synonyms that can sometimes be exact matches or may convey different nuances of meaning. Those nuances are important and you seem to be ignoring them entirely. If those nuances didn't exist then we wouldn't use different words to express different facets of an idea.

As far as I can tell, you have a very black and white view of the world. That is making it harder for you to describe things to people who see in color. We see pale red and pale blue and you want to make us call it light gray.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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