To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
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07-01-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
Say no to onanism Big Grin
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07-01-2017, 01:05 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(07-01-2017 10:08 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Say no to onanism Big Grin

... say no to defying an instruction from God to impregnate your brother's widow as a way of somehow inseminating her with your brother's seed?
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07-01-2017, 01:11 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(06-01-2017 11:15 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  
(06-01-2017 05:42 PM)Dom Wrote:  Are you saying that masturbation is a mortal sin?

Well I was trying to avoid that particular word for it, but yes. It falls under the same category in the teachings of the Catholic Church as does anal sex, oral sex, "homosexual sex acts", pearl necklaces, etc.; anything semen related that does end in a vagina, or in the words of theologians, "be open to the possibility of life". Interestingly enough though, under John Paul II's Theology of the Body, he scolds men who just finish and stop if their partner doesn't climax, encouraging the guy to do what his wife would want/need to be able to reach release as well.

(06-01-2017 08:41 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  He's secretly getting quite a charge out of what he hears.

I've had one before that I totally believe that.

Enjoy your self-imposed guilt. Thumbsup

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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07-01-2017, 02:14 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(06-01-2017 04:39 AM)theBorg Wrote:  The sins prior to baptism are cleaned away by the Savior. The sins after the baptism are subject to confession in the True Church (you must tell these sins to a Priest in the real building with the Holy Cross above).

What you have stated regarding confession is incompatible with scripture. People are told to confess to the lord. Not a priest.

For example in Daniel we have this:

And I prayed unto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

Does god really need a middleman? Of course not. Confession to priests has always been a way of manipulating and controlling the masses. Especially during periods of religion in Govt.

IMO you do not know the subject matter of which you profess to teach.


(06-01-2017 05:26 AM)theBorg Wrote:  Dear friends, let me teach you again some truths. Yes

There is condemnation against Russia in Clinton's hacking. The condemnation could be: 1) false, or 2) right. Do you follow? This condemnation is false, because it violates the Scientifically grounded the Presumption of Innocence (read it in Wikipedia).

Smartass


Well this is a real turn away from the original OP???

Also FYI. Wikipedia cannot be trusted. It is heavily edited by organisations pushing agendas. This practice has been exposed.



(06-01-2017 09:35 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yes. God created sin. We are imperfect beings meant to sin. That is the whole reason for salvation.
Wtf kind of question is this anyway?

Basically what you're saying here KC, is that everything is god's fault.

If you make a person to sin, don't be surprised if you see sin.

Like designing an aeroplane. Don't be surprised when it flies.

It would seem the Salvation was invented to rectify the mistakes made by god in the first place. He's the designer. All fault lays with him.

As for imperfect beings. Damned right. We get sick, frail, old, depressed. Again the fault of the designer.

We have no free will in this case. Remember, Free Will is not once mentioned in the bible. Not once. That idea came from St Augustin.

So in this biblical view, we are merely puppets. How can a puppet sin? Only the puppeteer can move the puppet.

I don't expect an answer KC. I know you don't debate. However I felt it important to point out this very negative view of humanity and he who is biblically responsible.

Your god!


(06-01-2017 04:39 AM)theBorg Wrote:  The sins prior to baptism are cleaned away by the Savior. The sins after the baptism are subject to confession in the True Church (you must tell these sins to a Priest in the real building with the Holy Cross above).


What you say here again is incompatible with scripture. Are priests the equal of your god? The bible says in every relevant passage to confess to the lord.

You don't know nor understand xianity. You have no right to tell us anything regarding theology when you do not know theology.

Some of us are actually qualified. You appear foolish.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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07-01-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(06-01-2017 02:03 AM)theBorg Wrote:  I am asking the opinion of theists, not the nonsense of the false atheists.

If you are the "atheist", please, play here the theist.

If you are angry (or else-way unfriendly), please go away, do not garbage mine thread!

Angry
Go blow a load in your own eye.

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07-01-2017, 08:59 PM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
The first question that has to be asked and defined: What is sin?

If one breaks down from Genesis to Jude, we can start making down all the various opinions about sin. They all do not necessarily agree.

The most Jewish grievous sin is to neglect studying the Law (or Torah).

The most Christian grievous sin is against the Holy Spirit.

But Jesus knocked the wind out both "grievous" sins by quoting the Torah: Love God and Love your neighbor. The most "grievous" sin, then, according to Jesus is to proclaim a love for God while not loving one's neighbor.

In the Islam faith, there is an exhortation to love one's neighbor, but the Muslims are just as human as the Jews and Christians, and they haven't been too keen on loving one's neighbor. To them, the most grievous sin is not to follow the rites of worship they believe God commanded.

But this is really the bottom line: "sins" are manufactured by a society in order to
1) regulate society
2) control society
3) identify as a society outside the regular world.

"Sins" are highly dependent upon the society's definition of a God. Mean, wrathful God tends to have a unending list of sins. Loving, forgiving God would like some changes of the human heart and mind but is quick to forgive.

Is it reasonable for a theist to sin? Of course. Being human is a "sin," for the single reason that each and everyone of us thinks only of ourselves. Altruism died the moment it left the cranium and was uttered out of some fool's mouth. We live in a "ME-world," live a "ME-existence," and worship a "ME-personal God."
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08-01-2017, 01:52 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(07-01-2017 08:59 PM)Wallisddj Wrote:  Being human is a "sin," for the single reason that each and everyone of us thinks only of ourselves.

Have something to prove that?

Quote:Altruism died the moment it left the cranium and was uttered out of some fool's mouth. We live in a "ME-world," live a "ME-existence," and worship a "ME-personal God."

As a theologian you may worship some form of god but I'm an atheist and worship isn't something that I do.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-01-2017, 03:19 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
Since I put quotations around the word "sin," the nature of the word is subject to interpretation.

In all of our mythologies, being human is a "sin" to the gods. Few demi-gods (resulting from the temptations of humans to the gods) were allowed god-head.

Secondly, using Plato's hierarchy, the god or gods, being so pure and spiritual, could not communicate directly to the material world. Such contamination would take away their godhead. Thus, intermediaries had to be created (in some cases, numerous levels) for prayers to ascend and orders to descend.

Obviously, for one who does believe in a god or supernatural power, we still have to live with one another. And we don't. Therefore, "sin" can be inferred to everything another person does that irritates us, pisses us off, or is a candidate to annihilation.

And, then, so we can proceed with this vein of thought, we humans are "sinning" against other humans no matter what we do, what we believe, or what we consider to be right or wrong, moral or immoral. It is just the nature of the beast. And no god or God has to be brought into this particular argument.
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08-01-2017, 03:28 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
I will submit that everyone worships something. People don't call it worship, but the form is worship regardless.

We have to move from the narrow concept of dancing, singing, sacrificing, et al. to some kind of deity to the much broader scope of observation.

People can worship money, or material things, or even people. There are so many things that people create an imaginary altar in their minds, and they do sacrifice on that altar feelings, thoughts, cares, et al. to achieve their goal in life.

My favorite is ME. I see people--including myself--worshiping the ME. There are times when I don't give a shit about other people. ME-first. I have hurt people. With the water long past the bridge, there isn't much I can do about it. Besides, I heartily suspect that the search for forgiveness is psychologically engineered to support the worship of ME. I get forgive? Boy, do I feel good.

I am sure you have met people who love to castigate themselves. They love being sick. They love being castigated. They love to be called dirty and be dirty. While psychology may be hesitant to define this as a worship, it has all the earmarks of what we see as classical worship within a church, synagogue, or mosque.

We all have a god. Could be us. Could be a concept. Could be a dream. That God or god does not have to limited to some supernatural being. Going back to mythology, look at how many protagonists and antagonists alike created gods in their own image and lived and died in worship to these created gods.
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08-01-2017, 03:48 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 03:19 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  In all of our mythologies, being human is a "sin" to the gods. Few demi-gods (resulting from the temptations of humans to the gods) were allowed god-head.

Is it? In Norse one too? In African ones too? Slavic? You're very knowledgeable or you just make unsupported assertions. Guess which I think is more likely.

Quote:Secondly, using Plato's hierarchy, the god or gods, being so pure and spiritual, could not communicate directly to the material world. Such contamination would take away their godhead. Thus, intermediaries had to be created (in some cases, numerous levels) for prayers to ascend and orders to descend.

So?

Quote:Obviously, for one who does believe in a god or supernatural power, we still have to live with one another. And we don't. Therefore, "sin" can be inferred to everything another person does that irritates us, pisses us off, or is a candidate to annihilation.

We have to live with one another regardless of belief or lack of it. Gods have nothing to do with it. Also we do live with one another - it's called family or society if we go for bigger scale. Granted these are far from perfect, but still.

Quote:And, then, so we can proceed with this vein of thought, we humans are "sinning" against other humans no matter what we do, what we believe, or what we consider to be right or wrong, moral or immoral. It is just the nature of the beast. And no god or God has to be brought into this particular argument.

If you expand the word as far as it is possible then sure - my mere existence may offend someone and I'm guilty of sin of existence. But I see no reason for which I should agree with such take. More than that I think that concept of sin is idiotic as it cover realm harm and slights to imagined space fairies.

(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  I will submit that everyone worships something. People don't call it worship, but the form is worship regardless.

Sure. I'm waiting when you will say that lack of religion is religion too.

Quote:We have to move from the narrow concept of dancing, singing, sacrificing, et al. to some kind of deity to the much broader scope of observation.

We have? Why? You think we have so your absurdly broad statement will hold the water.

Quote:People can worship money, or material things, or even people.

Can does not equal must.

Quote:There are so many things that people create an imaginary altar in their minds, and they do sacrifice on that altar feelings, thoughts, cares, et al. to achieve their goal in life.

Some people worshiping or maybe I should call it being obsessed with something does not mean that all people worship something. You just assert things without backing them.

Quote:My favorite is ME. I see people--including myself--worshiping the ME. There are times when I don't give a shit about other people. ME-first. I have hurt people. With the water long past the bridge, there isn't much I can do about it. Besides, I heartily suspect that the search for forgiveness is psychologically engineered to support the worship of ME. I get forgive? Boy, do I feel good.

Maybe you're projecting your thoughts onto others?

Quote:I am sure you have met people who love to castigate themselves. They love being sick. They love being castigated. They love to be called dirty and be dirty. While psychology may be hesitant to define this as a worship, it has all the earmarks of what we see as classical worship within a church, synagogue, or mosque.

Your sureness is misplaced for I have not meet such people. But I give you that some people may worship god in such strange way, like christians of old who had bizarre idea that god care about them being dirty, smelly and underfed.

Quote:We all have a god. Could be us. Could be a concept. Could be a dream. That God or god does not have to limited to some supernatural being. Going back to mythology, look at how many protagonists and antagonists alike created gods in their own image and lived and died in worship to these created gods.

It would be nice if you could prove your assertions. You may think that everyone worships something, especially if you broaden meaning of such word but thinking something does not make it true.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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