To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
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08-01-2017, 06:23 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
Wallis. Save the word Worship for something else eh?

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08-01-2017, 06:45 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  I will submit that everyone worships something. People don't call it worship, but the form is worship regardless.

We have to move from the narrow concept of dancing, singing, sacrificing, et al. to some kind of deity to the much broader scope of observation.

People can worship money, or material things, or even people. There are so many things that people create an imaginary altar in their minds, and they do sacrifice on that altar feelings, thoughts, cares, et al. to achieve their goal in life.

My favorite is ME. I see people--including myself--worshiping the ME. There are times when I don't give a shit about other people. ME-first. I have hurt people. With the water long past the bridge, there isn't much I can do about it. Besides, I heartily suspect that the search for forgiveness is psychologically engineered to support the worship of ME. I get forgive? Boy, do I feel good.

I am sure you have met people who love to castigate themselves. They love being sick. They love being castigated. They love to be called dirty and be dirty. While psychology may be hesitant to define this as a worship, it has all the earmarks of what we see as classical worship within a church, synagogue, or mosque.

We all have a god. Could be us. Could be a concept. Could be a dream. That God or god does not have to limited to some supernatural being. Going back to mythology, look at how many protagonists and antagonists alike created gods in their own image and lived and died in worship to these created gods.

You have generalized 'sin' and 'worship' into meaninglessness. Good job. Dodgy

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08-01-2017, 06:51 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 03:48 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-01-2017 03:19 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  In all of our mythologies, being human is a "sin" to the gods. Few demi-gods (resulting from the temptations of humans to the gods) were allowed god-head.

Is it? In Norse one too? In African ones too? Slavic? You're very knowledgeable or you just make unsupported assertions. Guess which I think is more likely.

Quote:Secondly, using Plato's hierarchy, the god or gods, being so pure and spiritual, could not communicate directly to the material world. Such contamination would take away their godhead. Thus, intermediaries had to be created (in some cases, numerous levels) for prayers to ascend and orders to descend.

So?

Quote:Obviously, for one who does believe in a god or supernatural power, we still have to live with one another. And we don't. Therefore, "sin" can be inferred to everything another person does that irritates us, pisses us off, or is a candidate to annihilation.

We have to live with one another regardless of belief or lack of it. Gods have nothing to do with it. Also we do live with one another - it's called family or society if we go for bigger scale. Granted these are far from perfect, but still.

Quote:And, then, so we can proceed with this vein of thought, we humans are "sinning" against other humans no matter what we do, what we believe, or what we consider to be right or wrong, moral or immoral. It is just the nature of the beast. And no god or God has to be brought into this particular argument.

If you expand the word as far as it is possible then sure - my mere existence may offend someone and I'm guilty of sin of existence. But I see no reason for which I should agree with such take. More than that I think that concept of sin is idiotic as it cover realm harm and slights to imagined space fairies.

(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  I will submit that everyone worships something. People don't call it worship, but the form is worship regardless.

Sure. I'm waiting when you will say that lack of religion is religion too.

Quote:We have to move from the narrow concept of dancing, singing, sacrificing, et al. to some kind of deity to the much broader scope of observation.

We have? Why? You think we have so your absurdly broad statement will hold the water.

Quote:People can worship money, or material things, or even people.

Can does not equal must.

Quote:There are so many things that people create an imaginary altar in their minds, and they do sacrifice on that altar feelings, thoughts, cares, et al. to achieve their goal in life.

Some people worshiping or maybe I should call it being obsessed with something does not mean that all people worship something. You just assert things without backing them.

Quote:My favorite is ME. I see people--including myself--worshiping the ME. There are times when I don't give a shit about other people. ME-first. I have hurt people. With the water long past the bridge, there isn't much I can do about it. Besides, I heartily suspect that the search for forgiveness is psychologically engineered to support the worship of ME. I get forgive? Boy, do I feel good.

Maybe you're projecting your thoughts onto others?

Quote:I am sure you have met people who love to castigate themselves. They love being sick. They love being castigated. They love to be called dirty and be dirty. While psychology may be hesitant to define this as a worship, it has all the earmarks of what we see as classical worship within a church, synagogue, or mosque.

Your sureness is misplaced for I have not meet such people. But I give you that some people may worship god in such strange way, like christians of old who had bizarre idea that god care about them being dirty, smelly and underfed.

Quote:We all have a god. Could be us. Could be a concept. Could be a dream. That God or god does not have to limited to some supernatural being. Going back to mythology, look at how many protagonists and antagonists alike created gods in their own image and lived and died in worship to these created gods.

It would be nice if you could prove your assertions. You may think that everyone worships something, especially if you broaden meaning of such word but thinking something does not make it true.

Thank you for your comments.
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08-01-2017, 07:05 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 06:51 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  
(08-01-2017 03:48 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Is it? In Norse one too? In African ones too? Slavic? You're very knowledgeable or you just make unsupported assertions. Guess which I think is more likely.


So?


We have to live with one another regardless of belief or lack of it. Gods have nothing to do with it. Also we do live with one another - it's called family or society if we go for bigger scale. Granted these are far from perfect, but still.


If you expand the word as far as it is possible then sure - my mere existence may offend someone and I'm guilty of sin of existence. But I see no reason for which I should agree with such take. More than that I think that concept of sin is idiotic as it cover realm harm and slights to imagined space fairies.


Sure. I'm waiting when you will say that lack of religion is religion too.


We have? Why? You think we have so your absurdly broad statement will hold the water.


Can does not equal must.


Some people worshiping or maybe I should call it being obsessed with something does not mean that all people worship something. You just assert things without backing them.


Maybe you're projecting your thoughts onto others?


Your sureness is misplaced for I have not meet such people. But I give you that some people may worship god in such strange way, like christians of old who had bizarre idea that god care about them being dirty, smelly and underfed.


It would be nice if you could prove your assertions. You may think that everyone worships something, especially if you broaden meaning of such word but thinking something does not make it true.

Thank you for your comments.

I would prefer some sensible arguments instead of meaningless "thank you" but I guess you realized that your assertions won't be left unchallenged.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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08-01-2017, 07:20 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 07:05 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(08-01-2017 06:51 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  Thank you for your comments.

I would prefer some sensible arguments instead of meaningless "thank you" but I guess you realized that your assertions won't be left unchallenged.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, you want to argue. I am used to academic discussions. Unfortunately, you would not walk one step with me in trying to understand what I was saying.

Case in point. You questioned my knowledge of mythology. I brushed off the attack. Yes, I am quite knowledgeable of mythology in Norse, European (including British), African, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese. And I have just started studying Filipino mythology.

I suggested we open up the definitions of "sin" and "worship," which you preferred to shoot down, regarding your own concepts as, well, let's be honest, sacro sanct or the only definitions you will accept.

A meaningful discussion would have entailed you coming back with a supposition or argument (as opposed to an argument of who should have filled the car up with gas) or hypothesis. I see little value in having my words thrown back in my face with "prove it," when these are concepts that often have very little proof to begin with. Much of what we are discussing falls in the realm of psychology and philosophy, and taking in both disciplines en total, there isn't a whole lot of proof but a cruise ship full of theories.

Sorry, but I don't have the time to argue. Discuss? Not a problem.

Again, thank you for your comments.
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08-01-2017, 07:42 AM (This post was last modified: 08-01-2017 10:31 AM by SYZ.)
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  I will submit that everyone worships something. People don't call it worship, but the form is worship regardless.

You're welcome to "submit" this notion, but unless one is a theist, it's meaningless. Worship is defined specifically as the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity, or the reverent honour and homage paid to God or a sacred personage. You're merely playing with semantics here.

(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  People can worship money, or material things, or even people.

No. Semantics again. Typical theist point of false argumentation.

(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  There are so many things that people create an imaginary altar in their minds, and they do sacrifice on that altar feelings, thoughts, cares, et al. to achieve their goal in life.

Again, no. Unsubstantiated.

(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  There are times when I don't give a shit about other people. ME-first. I have hurt people.

You're a typical theist then? Hypocrisy and self flagellation?

(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  We all have a god.

Oh dear... I'm beginning to think you're severely self-deluded, or a stubby short of a 6-pack. This is possibly one of the most inane comments you've posted here LOL.

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08-01-2017, 07:45 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 07:20 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  I'm sorry, but with all due respect, you want to argue. I am used to academic discussions. Unfortunately, you would not walk one step with me in trying to understand what I was saying.

I don't agree with you so I don't understand?

Quote:Case in point. You questioned my knowledge of mythology. I brushed off the attack. Yes, I am quite knowledgeable of mythology in Norse, European (including British), African, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese. And I have just started studying Filipino mythology.

I questioned your alleged knowledge cause you didn't backed it with facts. You just asserted that: In all of our mythologies, being human is a "sin" to the gods, without providing a shred of proof. I won't even mention unwarranted use of word "all" - I highly doubt that you have even cursory knowledge of all mythologies.

Saying that you're knowledgeable means nothing if you won't back your statements with something.

Quote:I suggested we open up the definitions of "sin" and "worship," which you preferred to shoot down, regarding your own concepts as, well, let's be honest, sacro sanct or the only definitions you will accept.

I see no reason for accepting your meaninglessly wide definitions as I suspect yours so called arguments hinge on redefining words. Otherwise how could everyone be considered worshiping something?

Quote:A meaningful discussion would have entailed you coming back with a supposition or argument (as opposed to an argument of who should have filled the car up with gas) or hypothesis. I see little value in having my words thrown back in my face with "prove it," when these are concepts that often have very little proof to begin with. Much of what we are discussing falls in the realm of psychology and philosophy, and taking in both disciplines en total, there isn't a whole lot of proof but a cruise ship full of theories.

Meaningful discussion would be possible if you were to show some actual knowledge not only assert that you have it. I guess it is easier to play a wise man used to academic discussion than actually put some thought in what you're saying.

I'll keep it simple - you claim that everyone has a god and you expect to be taken seriously?

Quote:Sorry, but I don't have the time to argue. Discuss? Not a problem.

For discussion to be possible something more than claims about having knowledge would be needed. In that department I find you lacking.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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08-01-2017, 08:12 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  I will submit that everyone worships something. People don't call it worship, but the form is worship regardless.
If they don't call it worship then perhaps it is not worship in the sense that worship is normally understood. Worship is ritual adoration. One could hyperbolically say that I worship software development but I do not ritually adore it. I just enjoy it and engage in it both vocationally and (subject to time and energy) avocationally. It is important to me. But I do not get messages from my code that no one else can hear, that guides my life and conduct, either.
(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  We have to move from the narrow concept of dancing, singing, sacrificing, et al. to some kind of deity to the much broader scope of observation.
If you would say WHY we need to do such a thing I might even be convinced. I can think of a number of reasons why NOT but let's hear your rationale first.
(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  People can worship money, or material things, or even people. There are so many things that people create an imaginary altar in their minds, and they do sacrifice on that altar feelings, thoughts, cares, et al. to achieve their goal in life.
Back in my theist days I used to buy this line of thinking that "everyone worships something, even if only themselves". But I now see that for what it is: an attempt to legitimize worship as an innate human need so that the only question becomes having a "correct" object.

First, even if that were true, who is to say that you couldn't meet the need with most any object. Who is to say what would be an "unworthy" or "incorrect" object of worship? Indeed, wouldn't a being who demands worship as its due be a highly suspect object of worship? Wouldn't worship freely given be of better quality and benefit to the giver as well as more authentic for the recipient?

Of course that line of questioning exposes another problem: worship doesn't just need an object. It needs a sentient object. Worship is adoration. Inanimate objects or abstractions like money are indifferent to adoration.

But in fact I see no evidence for an inherent need for worship. What humans try to achieve with theism and its trappings such as worship, is transcendence of the human condition, most particularly, their mortality and lack of agency in the face of suffering. Once you understand it that way then you see worship for what it is, it is part of the ritual-based undergirding to support theistic ideation and the immortality project that it represents.
(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  My favorite is ME. I see people--including myself--worshiping the ME. There are times when I don't give a shit about other people. ME-first. I have hurt people.
As have we all. But this is not self-worship. It is simply being aware of your needs / fears / desires more than that of others. We should call that what it really is: self-centeredness. And it is a product, fundamentally, of immaturity. I have found that the more life experience I have, the more I put myself in proper relation to life and to others. That is, I recognize that I suck as much as, and in the same ways as, everyone else, am just as likely to be mistaken, myopic or venal. But I do not see this as something I am helpless to do anything about other than to go to the extreme of self-abnegation and self-loathing, to be afraid to take any legitimate credit for anything and "give all the glory to god" and all the blame to myself, either.

Self-absorption is a straightforward problem with a simple remedy. That doesn't make it a trivial one-time decision to become other-centered, it is a lifelong project to be sure. But that is entirely explicable without constructs like 'worship'. It is perfectly to be expected that people put #1 first. That is a bias provided by natural selection for the pre-urban world of hunter-gatherers and we have to override it because our social and technological development and needs have far outstripped natural selection's operating pace to adjust for it. It's that simple ... and that problematic.

I will at least grant you that the ultimate end of your arguments about worship isn't the usual "therefore, god". At least it does not presently appear so. For the moment at least you seem to be arguing for worship as a way to better understand one's humanity, as something to work with. But I think there are underlying concepts that are better focused on: our need for a safe and comprehensible existence over against the need for social reciprocity, the need to otherize vs empathy, etc. Worship is just a flawed abstraction for attempting to wrestle with the human condition.
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08-01-2017, 11:22 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
Basically, on the "open to life" stuff. The sex act has to end in the possibility of the creation of new life; and though 98% of Catholics use the condom and the Pill, that's not the church teaching according to Humanae Vitae. Adey67, part of me wants to go "Oh no! to Onanism..." if we could make a DARE-esque, equally ineffective, "don't touch thyself" campaign. Tongue

(07-01-2017 01:11 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-01-2017 11:15 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Well I was trying to avoid that particular word for it, but yes. It falls under the same category in the teachings of the Catholic Church as does anal sex, oral sex, "homosexual sex acts", pearl necklaces, etc.; anything semen related that does end in a vagina, or in the words of theologians, "be open to the possibility of life". Interestingly enough though, under John Paul II's Theology of the Body, he scolds men who just finish and stop if their partner doesn't climax, encouraging the guy to do what his wife would want/need to be able to reach release as well.


I've had one before that I totally believe that.

Enjoy your self-imposed guilt. Thumbsup
I don't need religion for my own self imposed guilt complexes sadly. But hey, I do, do, the Catholic guilt thing well, and self impose it well, you are right.

(08-01-2017 06:45 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(08-01-2017 03:28 AM)Wallisddj Wrote:  I will submit that everyone worships something. People don't call it worship, but the form is worship regardless.

We have to move from the narrow concept of dancing, singing, sacrificing, et al. to some kind of deity to the much broader scope of observation.

People can worship money, or material things, or even people. There are so many things that people create an imaginary altar in their minds, and they do sacrifice on that altar feelings, thoughts, cares, et al. to achieve their goal in life.

My favorite is ME. I see people--including myself--worshiping the ME. There are times when I don't give a shit about other people. ME-first. I have hurt people. With the water long past the bridge, there isn't much I can do about it. Besides, I heartily suspect that the search for forgiveness is psychologically engineered to support the worship of ME. I get forgive? Boy, do I feel good.

I am sure you have met people who love to castigate themselves. They love being sick. They love being castigated. They love to be called dirty and be dirty. While psychology may be hesitant to define this as a worship, it has all the earmarks of what we see as classical worship within a church, synagogue, or mosque.

We all have a god. Could be us. Could be a concept. Could be a dream. That God or god does not have to limited to some supernatural being. Going back to mythology, look at how many protagonists and antagonists alike created gods in their own image and lived and died in worship to these created gods.

You have generalized 'sin' and 'worship' into meaninglessness. Good job. Dodgy

Funny enough, this would fall under the sin of "relativism" as far as Borgy and mine's churches go...which would mean that Chas is agreeing with the Church... I do believe Hell froze over? Yes

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08-01-2017, 11:26 AM
RE: To theists only: is it reasonable for a theist to sin?
Say one more negative thing about Chas and I'll reach through the screen and throttle you. Sad

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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