To train up a child
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20-11-2013, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2013 03:10 PM by Chas.)
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, now, I am encouraged. I wish I had brought up this subject months ago--I think a solid bit of evidence for God's existence--the Judeo-Christian God--is how one might apply the biblical framework for child raising and raise little angels instead of little devils, or--if you don't mind my frankness, little atheists.

I do appreciate the person who wrote to say they were in counseling and working through some of the issues of the past from this sort of idea--I sincerely hope my words here will help them to understand and figure whether her parents were abusive or not—that is an obvious, important distinction.

BB, I mistyped if I said my daughter was starting at Yale--she applied to Yale and rocked her interview--she has a community college degree and decided to be a junior elsewhere--Yale would have started her again as a freshman and dropped over 60 credits...

I'll clarify, too, since this is a thread about the Pearls's book--I've bought copies of the book and given them to others--I apply many of their techniques but not to the degree to which they do--they are WAY beyond what many or most Christians do.

First again, do take personal stock, folks. I'm most surprised that some of you react so strongly to this concept of withholding food. Really? None of you had atheist parents who when you refused to eat the hot dog mom made for dinner, said, "Sit there and eat it and learn some respect--people are starving in Africa" or even "This goes in the fridge now and in the microwave for you in an hour when you're really hungry, our home is not a restaurant and we're all eating hot dogs tonight…"?

Really? None of you had parents that did stuff like that? Mine did--they weren't born again, either. Again, the Pearls go further to serving the hot dogs the next day for breakfast, but...

**

So, let's start with very young child "training". TRAINING, not discipline or punishment. I think the Pearls say six months, but again...

Moving on, my real life story. You can read it and decide whether I should be executed and flogged like Christ (reverse that order) or merely imprisoned, okay? Of course, your mocking and cursing me is like always, free of cost here at The Thinking Atheist (mind you, I have high hopes of this site changing its name to a plural one soon—just kidding)!

**

My son is eleven months old. He can't communicate much verbally but he can crawl and walk some. Back in the day, we have a VCR underneath the living room TV on the carpeted floor. He likes the flashing lights, the noises, the warmth. He crawls toward it. Our ideal moment to begin training! We can move the electrical equipment higher or use an opportunity or both?

Mom and I say, "No touch" with a bright, pleasant voice. Think Barbara Woodhouse saying "walkies!" No touch! No touch, son! Happy, soft, bright, not angry or abusive.

My boy regards us for a moment as we are near him and he is near the VCR. Wheels turn in his head. He reaches out to touch the VCR then hesitates. "No touch!" we say with a smile. He touches. We kill him! No...! Just foolin’ round with you people.

Here's what we did back then...

We take his tiny 11-year old precious hand gently in one of our hands. With the other we flick the soft skin that webs between his thumb and forefinger. Like the way you flick an "okay" sign made with a thumb and one finger on your hand, like you're propelling a marble--only far gentler.

He shouts in pain!  No, it wasn't nearly enough to cause discomfort. It's merely a stimulus.

We say no touch, he reaches for the VCR again and we flick again. No touch! Walkies!

Do you know what an 11-month-old can do mentally? A LOT. He looks at us silently, he looks at the VCR. He is both a Pavlovian child being trained and he's at the same trying to TEST US. Will the big people flick me if I reach out again after they say no? Should I or shouldn’t I? “I’m pretty powerful. I poop my pants or burp and they come running. Can I master them and this environment? Am I subject to rule of law?”

Maybe I’m exaggerating a little here but since it takes a Cray weeks to do what a human can cogitate in seconds…

…All this takes about 30 seconds. Three touches or attempts and flicks. About a day or two later, there's two touches and two more flicks.

**
Result of one minute of training an infant:

Other than the obvious like hiding household poisons, cleaning solvents and medicines, we didn't really need to childproof our house much. We could say "No touch" gently to my son until he was 5 (?) or whatever age was too old for that phrase. We could go to a friend's home, one without small children, who had glassware everywhere and precious collectibles and snacks on the table, look at our child reach out or look and say "no touch" and that's it. No discipline, no threats, no harsh words. Just no touch and he’d find something else to amuse himself or come to us to do something else more fun...

Just as important--and I apologize for jumping ahead in my story--we could say "Stop" to our children while they walked and they--stopped. Several times they were saved from stepping in front of cars and other vehicles when we were carrying groceries or whatever.

Training a child isn't for everyone at every level--but it can be a matter of life or death.

We've just begun my real life stories so now you can flame me, affirm me or question me, and I can decide whether I ought to continue my real life stories or just “disappear” like I’m accused of when I actually take more than 12 hours to sleep and shower before replying to you!

You praised this book without reservation.
Now you are saying that it goes too far, yet you give it to other parents. Consider

As I predicted, you are now backpedaling.
You don't see how applying the suggestions of this book is abuse? Or you don't see how others might follow it since you said it was wonderful?
This is a dangerous book whose authors espouse inhuman treatment of children.

It is difficult to take you at all seriously when you say things like this.

Quote:For people who say they want an atheist-only forum, you sure do seem to love my posts.

Funny, absolutely no one has said that. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-11-2013, 03:02 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 02:53 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  PS. A little teaser, though, my wife breastfed our babies and was happy to know how to stop them from biting her nipples!

Funny when I breastfed my sons, and they bit me, I simply removed them from my breast. I didn't need to pull hair or flick them. Like I said resorting to that type of stimulus or pain, is just lazy parenting.

There are much far more effective ways of dealing with a biting baby while they nurse.

Just like there are far more effective ways of dealing with misbehaving older children. Those ways require far more work...

Well, you said it. Far more work. You can pull them off ten times a day times 200 days running or you can pull their hair not even enough to make them leave off sucking but to stop biting you. Not pain--stimulus. In our children's case (from memory now) the children stopped biting within a few minutes (a hair pull or two)? Maybe it recurred the second day?

Dogs cannot talk (too much). Just as creative methods were used to contact Helen Keller "inside" we can use some clever methods that are simple and effective to tell a non-verbal infant "don't bite mom". Just like I do certain things so my dog doesn't lick human faces or animal feces or runs into the street.

If you prefer the more humane pull them off ten times a day--which stops their receiving nourishment, that's a choice.

For all the talk about whether God (or god) plays dice, we sure are playing dice with human lives with untrained children. The Pearls live in Amish country--a horse that does not respond to the reins puts the buggy in the path of Pennsylvania's cars and trucks and you die. The precepts are:

*children are as important as horses Tongue

*idiots and rednecks can train horses, most people let their children train them

*this is because children are quite willful

*fix the problem

As to hard work, by the way, it is gigantic in scope and hard work indeed to train children consistently. Really, really very hard.
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20-11-2013, 03:04 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, now, I am encouraged. I wish I had brought up this subject months ago--I think a solid bit of evidence for God's existence--the Judeo-Christian God--is how one might apply the biblical framework for child raising and raise little angels instead of little devils, or--if you don't mind my frankness, little atheists.

I do appreciate the person who wrote to say they were in counseling and working through some of the issues of the past from this sort of idea--I sincerely hope my words here will help them to understand and figure whether her parents were abusive or not—that is an obvious, important distinction.

BB, I mistyped if I said my daughter was starting at Yale--she applied to Yale and rocked her interview--she has a community college degree and decided to be a junior elsewhere--Yale would have started her again as a freshman and dropped over 60 credits...

I'll clarify, too, since this is a thread about the Pearls's book--I've bought copies of the book and given them to others--I apply many of their techniques but not to the degree to which they do--they are WAY beyond what many or most Christians do.

First again, do take personal stock, folks. I'm most surprised that some of you react so strongly to this concept of withholding food. Really? None of you had atheist parents who when you refused to eat the hot dog mom made for dinner, said, "Sit there and eat it and learn some respect--people are starving in Africa" or even "This goes in the fridge now and in the microwave for you in an hour when you're really hungry, our home is not a restaurant and we're all eating hot dogs tonight…"?

Really? None of you had parents that did stuff like that? Mine did--they weren't born again, either. Again, the Pearls go further to serving the hot dogs the next day for breakfast, but...

**

So, let's start with very young child "training". TRAINING, not discipline or punishment. I think the Pearls say six months, but again...

Moving on, my real life story. You can read it and decide whether I should be executed and flogged like Christ (reverse that order) or merely imprisoned, okay? Of course, your mocking and cursing me is like always, free of cost here at The Thinking Atheist (mind you, I have high hopes of this site changing its name to a plural one soon—just kidding)!

**

My son is eleven months old. He can't communicate much verbally but he can crawl and walk some. Back in the day, we have a VCR underneath the living room TV on the carpeted floor. He likes the flashing lights, the noises, the warmth. He crawls toward it. Our ideal moment to begin training! We can move the electrical equipment higher or use an opportunity or both?

Mom and I say, "No touch" with a bright, pleasant voice. Think Barbara Woodhouse saying "walkies!" No touch! No touch, son! Happy, soft, bright, not angry or abusive.

My boy regards us for a moment as we are near him and he is near the VCR. Wheels turn in his head. He reaches out to touch the VCR then hesitates. "No touch!" we say with a smile. He touches. We kill him! No...! Just foolin’ round with you people.

Here's what we did back then...

We take his tiny 11-year old precious hand gently in one of our hands. With the other we flick the soft skin that webs between his thumb and forefinger. Like the way you flick an "okay" sign made with a thumb and one finger on your hand, like you're propelling a marble--only far gentler.

He shouts in pain!  No, it wasn't nearly enough to cause discomfort. It's merely a stimulus.

We say no touch, he reaches for the VCR again and we flick again. No touch! Walkies!

Do you know what an 11-month-old can do mentally? A LOT. He looks at us silently, he looks at the VCR. He is both a Pavlovian child being trained and he's at the same trying to TEST US. Will the big people flick me if I reach out again after they say no? Should I or shouldn’t I? “I’m pretty powerful. I poop my pants or burp and they come running. Can I master them and this environment? Am I subject to rule of law?”

Maybe I’m exaggerating a little here but since it takes a Cray weeks to do what a human can cogitate in seconds…

…All this takes about 30 seconds. Three touches or attempts and flicks. About a day or two later, there's two touches and two more flicks.

**
Result of one minute of training an infant:

Other than the obvious like hiding household poisons, cleaning solvents and medicines, we didn't really need to childproof our house much. We could say "No touch" gently to my son until he was 5 (?) or whatever age was too old for that phrase. We could go to a friend's home, one without small children, who had glassware everywhere and precious collectibles and snacks on the table, look at our child reach out or look and say "no touch" and that's it. No discipline, no threats, no harsh words. Just no touch and he’d find something else to amuse himself or come to us to do something else more fun...

Just as important--and I apologize for jumping ahead in my story--we could say "Stop" to our children while they walked and they--stopped. Several times they were saved from stepping in front of cars and other vehicles when we were carrying groceries or whatever.

Training a child isn't for everyone at every level--but it can be a matter of life or death.

We've just begun my real life stories so now you can flame me, affirm me or question me, and I can decide whether I ought to continue my real life stories or just “disappear” like I’m accused of when I actually take more than 12 hours to sleep and shower before replying to you!

You praised this book without reservation.
Now you are saying that it goes too far, yet you give it to other parents. Consider
You don't see how applying the suggestions of this book is abuse? Or you don't see how others might follow it since you said it was wonderful?

It is difficult to take your at all seriously when you say things like this.

Quote:For people who say they want an atheist-only forum, you sure do seem to love my posts.

Funny, absolutely no one has said that. Drinking Beverage

I said I gave the book to others. Did I say elaborate as to why I gave it? And did I really praise it without reservation? Did you miss the other posts asking why I teed up my comments with so many disclaimers?

And yes, this very thread has people wondering when I'll return to delight them with my answers... did you read the whole thread?

Delight may be a bit much. Thumbsup
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20-11-2013, 03:09 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 02:51 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Baby - breastfeeding, needs satisfied, warm and calm, listening to mom's heartbeat and taking in the smell of her. Close enough for underdeveloped eyes to make out the face of the person that they should feel closest to. Loving, natural, bonding moment.

Baby - starts chewing motion not realizing that since cutting teeth the rules have changed. Hair is pulled - pain.

Forever linked - pain and pleasure.

Loving parent fail.

I train dogs and to a lesser extent, cats. Confused

My dog lives on the laps of our family. We've used stimuli and rewards and punishment with her. She LOVES us. We didn't fail with her or our humans kids.

Are you a Christian? A freethinker? Do you believe in evolution on a macro scale or creation? In other words, are humans special or are they animals? If you train animals, you can train children when they are behaving like animals or unable to voice sentient responses...

I said STIMULUS. We did not cause our breastfeeding toddler and my 11-month-old son pursuing the VCR PAIN.

A stimulus may or may not be pain. If you're ready to discuss when we caused our kids pain on purpose, we can talk about it.
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20-11-2013, 03:17 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You do know that some normal parents spank their kids, and that spanking makes kids cry (sometimes)? Spanking can be instructive or abusive. So can Bible study. So can visiting TTA. So can most anything. Context, my brother, context.

So... let's have some context. What do you consider abuse? Because the word 'pain' is used repeatedly by Pearl. Not stimulus (which would include loud noise, flashing light, the clap of hands, or a painless flick to the web of the hand), but pain. Pain that is to be repeated until the child's will is broken; any other action is considered (by Pearl) to be acquiescing to the child's demands.

Define abuse.

(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And this Tongue makes me uncertain--did you really like my VCR training?

You didn't hurt your kid and it worked. Why wouldn't I like it?
Disclaimer: I am not a trained child psychologist.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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20-11-2013, 03:19 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:02 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:53 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Funny when I breastfed my sons, and they bit me, I simply removed them from my breast. I didn't need to pull hair or flick them. Like I said resorting to that type of stimulus or pain, is just lazy parenting.

There are much far more effective ways of dealing with a biting baby while they nurse.

Just like there are far more effective ways of dealing with misbehaving older children. Those ways require far more work...

Well, you said it. Far more work. You can pull them off ten times a day times 200 days running or you can pull their hair not even enough to make them leave off sucking but to stop biting you. Not pain--stimulus. In our children's case (from memory now) the children stopped biting within a few minutes (a hair pull or two)? Maybe it recurred the second day?

Dogs cannot talk (too much). Just as creative methods were used to contact Helen Keller "inside" we can use some clever methods that are simple and effective to tell a non-verbal infant "don't bite mom". Just like I do certain things so my dog doesn't lick human faces or animal feces or runs into the street.

If you prefer the more humane pull them off ten times a day--which stops their receiving nourishment, that's a choice.

For all the talk about whether God (or god) plays dice, we sure are playing dice with human lives with untrained children. The Pearls live in Amish country--a horse that does not respond to the reins puts the buggy in the path of Pennsylvania's cars and trucks and you die. The precepts are:

*children are as important as horses Tongue

*idiots and rednecks can train horses, most people let their children train them

*this is because children are quite willful

*fix the problem

As to hard work, by the way, it is gigantic in scope and hard work indeed to train children consistently. Really, really very hard.

Most biting occurs toward the end of the nursing session, stopping it teaches the child that it ends. Removing the child from the breast allows the child to make a choice. If they are indeed hungry they will settle down quickly return to nursing . If not it becomes the game mom won't play and they get bored and stop. Not a big deal so please don't try to validate or defend poor parenting technique.

My children are incredibly well behaved. One of my sons is special needs and even he is well behaved. All through school my oldest son recieved raves from his teachers. I have never bribed my children to get get good grades, or to behave appropriately nor are they spoiled. I have never found spanking children appropriate behavior modification. Consistency was the most important tool. They broke a rule and they knew there would be a consequence for breaking it.

When my oldest was very young (toddler age) we would take him to very nice restaurants he would put his napkin in his lap just like we did. We modeled good behavior for him. The server and even other patrons remarked pubicly on how polite he was...this is something we've continued ever since. I've never once been afraid of taking my boys anywhere.

Again, all that achieved with rarely yelling and NEVER hitting.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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20-11-2013, 03:25 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:19 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:02 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, you said it. Far more work. You can pull them off ten times a day times 200 days running or you can pull their hair not even enough to make them leave off sucking but to stop biting you. Not pain--stimulus. In our children's case (from memory now) the children stopped biting within a few minutes (a hair pull or two)? Maybe it recurred the second day?

Dogs cannot talk (too much). Just as creative methods were used to contact Helen Keller "inside" we can use some clever methods that are simple and effective to tell a non-verbal infant "don't bite mom". Just like I do certain things so my dog doesn't lick human faces or animal feces or runs into the street.

If you prefer the more humane pull them off ten times a day--which stops their receiving nourishment, that's a choice.

For all the talk about whether God (or god) plays dice, we sure are playing dice with human lives with untrained children. The Pearls live in Amish country--a horse that does not respond to the reins puts the buggy in the path of Pennsylvania's cars and trucks and you die. The precepts are:

*children are as important as horses Tongue

*idiots and rednecks can train horses, most people let their children train them

*this is because children are quite willful

*fix the problem

As to hard work, by the way, it is gigantic in scope and hard work indeed to train children consistently. Really, really very hard.

Most biting occurs toward the end of the nursing session, stopping it teaches the child that it ends. Removing the child from the breast allows the child to make a choice. If they are indeed hungry they will settle down quickly return to nursing . If not it becomes the game mom won't play and they get bored and stop. Not a big deal so please don't try to validate or defend poor parenting technique.

My children are incredibly well behaved. One of my sons is special needs and even he is well behaved. All through school my oldest son recieved raves from his teachers. I have never bribed my children to get get good grades, or to behave appropriately nor are they spoiled. I have never found spanking children appropriate behavior modification. Consistency was the most important tool. They broke a rule and they knew there would be a consequence for breaking it.

When my oldest was very young (toddler age) we would take him to very nice restaurants he would put his napkin in his lap just like we did. We modeled good behavior for him. The server and even other patrons remarked pubicly on how polite he was...this is something we've continued ever since. I've never once been afraid of taking my boys anywhere.

Again, all that achieved with rarely yelling and NEVER hitting.

1. That is awesome. I've read before about your special needs child and I commend your patience and your awesome love for your child.

2. There are consequences for choosing to follow your plan rather than God's. Just saying. There are always consequences for everything, I find, however.
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20-11-2013, 03:27 PM
RE: To train up a child
So, PJ is more concerned about public embarrassment from children than the emotional development of children, and is only experienced in socializing within like-minded circles. People who believe children are less than animals, that children are nothing more than extensions of their own identities. People who need a doll collection and to be eventually selected out of the population. Angry

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20-11-2013, 03:30 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:17 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You do know that some normal parents spank their kids, and that spanking makes kids cry (sometimes)? Spanking can be instructive or abusive. So can Bible study. So can visiting TTA. So can most anything. Context, my brother, context.

So... let's have some context. What do you consider abuse? Because the word 'pain' is used repeatedly by Pearl. Not stimulus (which would include loud noise, flashing light, the clap of hands, or a painless flick to the web of the hand), but pain. Pain that is to be repeated until the child's will is broken; any other action is considered (by Pearl) to be acquiescing to the child's demands.

Define abuse.

(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And this Tongue makes me uncertain--did you really like my VCR training?

You didn't hurt your kid and it worked. Why wouldn't I like it?
Disclaimer: I am not a trained child psychologist.

I would say the Pearls' children and grandchildren show no outward signs of abuse--not bruises--that's not what I mean, but sullenness, being withdrawn, abusing narcotics, lack of commitment later in life, strings of broken relationships, etc. I know what abuse is, I've seen it, and with non-Christian people, been subjected to it.

I know with more certainty about the kids and grandkids in my church movement. Thousands of confident, skilled, creative, healthy young people who've been spanked without a belt, without yelling, angry parents and etc.

I will NEVER forget asking my kids, "How do you know mom and I love you?" and their response was "Because you discipline us when we do wrong." Shocking

Add to the usual liberal "tolerance, love, education" the maxim "punishment for wrong, praise for right" and you'd be amazed how few people in society get addicted to harming themselves and others with destructive behavior.
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20-11-2013, 03:32 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:27 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So, PJ is more concerned about public embarrassment from children than the emotional development of children, and is only experienced in socializing within like-minded circles. People who believe children are less than animals, that children are nothing more than extensions of their own identities. People who need a doll collection and to be eventually selected out of the population. Angry

Huh?!

I'm concerned that when you see two-year-olds dominating their parents at the mall, those same kids grow up to be adult brats, too. Period.

My kids reflected/reflect God and a proper upbringing. It is validating and lovely to have own's own parents say "Your marriage is strong and your kids are marvelous. Everyone loves them, they are respectful and good natured." It's very affirming and Bible affirming as well.
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