To train up a child
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20-11-2013, 03:34 PM
RE: To train up a child
I would have a horrible time following a god that required me to beat a child to force them to behave. In the case of my special needs child, he would have likely become violent as a consequence.

That said thank you.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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20-11-2013, 03:35 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:27 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So, PJ is more concerned about public embarrassment from children than the emotional development of children, and is only experienced in socializing within like-minded circles. People who believe children are less than animals, that children are nothing more than extensions of their own identities. People who need a doll collection and to be eventually selected out of the population. Angry

PS. I thought YOU are an evolutionist now. I never said kids are less than animals I said they ARE animals. Animals are to be trained. We can wait until they understand what a time out and then put them in time out, that is, cast them from our presence (like atheists get annoyed about god doing on judgment day) or we can train them before they can verbalize rebellion.

Or are you going to share anthropic principles of how kids are special and NOT animals. What's the world coming to? Will you tell me they're created in god's image, too?
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20-11-2013, 03:38 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:34 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I would have a horrible time following a god that required me to beat a child to force them to behave. In the case of my special needs child, he would have likely become violent as a consequence.

That said thank you.

And therefore my disclaimers! I spanked my children, I never beat them. Most normal Christians are not the Pearls, it's very, very hard to spank our kids. We don't want to do it...

But no, kids should be forced to behave in certain ways because they are not adults. If you've ever said, "not in my home, kid" you've demanded obedience to a certain standard or behavior.

Kids should be forced to pay attention in school unless they need to have a problem addressed differently like Autism or severe ADHD.

Kids should be forced to flush the toilet, brush their teeth, and frankly, read their Bibles... Smile
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20-11-2013, 03:41 PM
RE: To train up a child
Keep talking, PJ. There's no better example of the dangerous stagnation inspired by Christianity.

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20-11-2013, 03:42 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I would say the Pearls' children and grandchildren show no outward signs of abuse--not bruises--that's not what I mean, but sullenness, being withdrawn, abusing narcotics, lack of commitment later in life, strings of broken relationships, etc. I know what abuse is, I've seen it, and with non-Christian people, been subjected to it.

Stay on target. We're talking about a specific punishment advocated by Pearl. Pain until compliance, toddlers and infants included.

(20-11-2013 03:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I know with more certainty about the kids and grandkids in my church movement. Thousands of confident, skilled, creative, healthy young people who've been spanked without a belt, without yelling, angry parents and etc.

Stay on target. We're talking about a specific punishment advocated by Pearl. Pain until compliance, toddlers and infants included.

(20-11-2013 03:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Add to the usual liberal "tolerance, love, education" the maxim "punishment for wrong, praise for right" and you'd be amazed how few people in society get addicted to harming themselves and others with destructive behavior.

Stay on target. We're talking about a specific punishment advocated by Pearl. Pain until compliance, toddlers and infants included.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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20-11-2013, 03:45 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 02:12 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 01:49 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Which one is it? You're so full of crap!

How is this withholding food?

Training is for animals. Love and education are for kids.

Just move the VCR up out of reach. Rolleyes When he is old enough to understand the danger, then you can take the opportunity for education and move it back down. No flicking necessary. The flicking isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's also a completely unnecessary infliction of some pain. So why do it when there are other ways?

Teaching them to obey "stop" is useful, but when it comes to traffic or other dangers, I would never leave the matter up to obedience when they are that small. I would hold their hands. If I couldn't carry groceries and do that to protect them, then the groceries could wait.

1. There was no pain. The child was not hurt. There was a stimulus. We do not cause children 11 months old to feel pain. No.

2. Yes, you have me moving the VCR. Do I move the entire contents of my childless friends' homes when I visit? We never had to childproof our home because we home proofed our children, other, again, then the obvious and necessary like medicines and household chemicals.

3. I KNEW someone would tell me how virtuous they were in that the groceries weren't as important as the children. Exactly what I thought as I typed it.

In real life, hands slip and kids--Christian kids--aren't on leashes, like the disgusting, dog-like leashes parents who don't train feel compelled to bring to public places. My kids are everything to me. When younger, they spent most of their time in public in my arms or perched between my shoulders. But I'm telling you the couple of times there was risk the risk was ended instantly with a verbal--wait for it--wait for it--here it comes--a verbal command.

Obedience has to do with obeying commands. My children were told the necessity of obeying "stop" had to do with life and death situations in different cases. Unlike other children, they stopped.

At the mall, the children who cling tightly to their parents crave attention. My kids always felt secure and loved, so they could be steps ahead. Christian children who are trained are often far ahead. You could say "Stop when you get to X" or "Yes, you can go on ahead and wait for me at the corner of this block" once they understood and had been trained in appropriate responses to strangers and outside threats from kidnappers and etc.

Children who are trained, including versions of the Pearl methods, are comfortable obeying commands. There were benefits obeying syllabi and instructions in school. There were benefits in being respectful to authority instead of filled with bitterness and anger. And there was plain old goodness. My son just got his driver's license and I feel so very secure in his passenger seat because he is a defensive, courteous, calm, careful vehicle operator. But insurance is high for teens because they "naturally" take risks. To some extent, like neurology and brain chemistry, they do.

But we did not raise "natural animals". We raised young adults.
1. No pain? Are you sure? I don't see how you can be certain every time. Anyway, what's the point when you can just move the VCR?

2. Other people's houses were never a problem for my kids or me because I constantly supervised them. They always came and still come first. If some other parent wanted to talk to me and I couldn't pay attention to both, the other parent lost out. They can wait. They can understand. Children in potential danger can't wait. But, yes, it is also useful to teach kids "stop". I just don't agree with your method. My kids learned "stop" just fine without any flicking.

3. Why would your kids' hands slip? And, again, teaching "stop" (without the flicking) is fine as a backup measure, but just not as a first choice.

Finally, obedience has it's place, but most of the time I don't want my kids to be merely obedient. I want them to know what the right choices are and to make them before I have to ask or tell them to do anything differently. Training gives Pavlovian responses. Education gives understanding so they are enabled and motivated to make the smarter choices independently. When they are too young to do this, then they need 100% supervision even in seemingly "baby proof" environments. After that, they need education, not training.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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20-11-2013, 03:49 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:42 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I would say the Pearls' children and grandchildren show no outward signs of abuse--not bruises--that's not what I mean, but sullenness, being withdrawn, abusing narcotics, lack of commitment later in life, strings of broken relationships, etc. I know what abuse is, I've seen it, and with non-Christian people, been subjected to it.

Stay on target. We're talking about a specific punishment advocated by Pearl. Pain until compliance, toddlers and infants included.

(20-11-2013 03:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I know with more certainty about the kids and grandkids in my church movement. Thousands of confident, skilled, creative, healthy young people who've been spanked without a belt, without yelling, angry parents and etc.

Stay on target. We're talking about a specific punishment advocated by Pearl. Pain until compliance, toddlers and infants included.

(20-11-2013 03:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Add to the usual liberal "tolerance, love, education" the maxim "punishment for wrong, praise for right" and you'd be amazed how few people in society get addicted to harming themselves and others with destructive behavior.

Stay on target. We're talking about a specific punishment advocated by Pearl. Pain until compliance, toddlers and infants included.

When a toddler is spanked, it feels pain. I've got to tell you without getting ahead of myself, if it doesn't feel some pain the spanking will actually be counterproductive. Not an infant. The Pearls are wrong there IMO.

Random pain seems abusive. "Do you know why mommy is going to spank you?" "Because I pulled my sister's hair and hurt her even after you told me to stop?" cannot be held with an infant...
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20-11-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:12 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1. There was no pain. The child was not hurt. There was a stimulus. We do not cause children 11 months old to feel pain. No.

2. Yes, you have me moving the VCR. Do I move the entire contents of my childless friends' homes when I visit? We never had to childproof our home because we home proofed our children, other, again, then the obvious and necessary like medicines and household chemicals.

3. I KNEW someone would tell me how virtuous they were in that the groceries weren't as important as the children. Exactly what I thought as I typed it.

In real life, hands slip and kids--Christian kids--aren't on leashes, like the disgusting, dog-like leashes parents who don't train feel compelled to bring to public places. My kids are everything to me. When younger, they spent most of their time in public in my arms or perched between my shoulders. But I'm telling you the couple of times there was risk the risk was ended instantly with a verbal--wait for it--wait for it--here it comes--a verbal command.

Obedience has to do with obeying commands. My children were told the necessity of obeying "stop" had to do with life and death situations in different cases. Unlike other children, they stopped.

At the mall, the children who cling tightly to their parents crave attention. My kids always felt secure and loved, so they could be steps ahead. Christian children who are trained are often far ahead. You could say "Stop when you get to X" or "Yes, you can go on ahead and wait for me at the corner of this block" once they understood and had been trained in appropriate responses to strangers and outside threats from kidnappers and etc.

Children who are trained, including versions of the Pearl methods, are comfortable obeying commands. There were benefits obeying syllabi and instructions in school. There were benefits in being respectful to authority instead of filled with bitterness and anger. And there was plain old goodness. My son just got his driver's license and I feel so very secure in his passenger seat because he is a defensive, courteous, calm, careful vehicle operator. But insurance is high for teens because they "naturally" take risks. To some extent, like neurology and brain chemistry, they do.

But we did not raise "natural animals". We raised young adults.
1. No pain? Are you sure? I don't see how you can be certain every time. Anyway, what's the point when you can just move the VCR?

2. Other people's houses were never a problem for my kids or me because I constantly supervised them. They always came and still come first. If some other parent wanted to talk to me and I couldn't pay attention to both, the other parent lost out. They can wait. They can understand. Children in potential danger can't wait. But, yes, it is also useful to teach kids "stop". I just don't agree with your method. My kids learned "stop" just fine without any flicking.

3. Why would your kids' hands slip? And, again, teaching "stop" (without the flicking) is fine as a backup measure, but just not as a first choice.

Finally, obedience has it's place, but most of the time I don't want my kids to be merely obedient. I want them to know what the right choices are and to make them before I have to ask or tell them to do anything differently. Training gives Pavlovian responses. Education gives understanding so they are enabled and motivated to make the smarter choices independently. When they are too young to do this, then they need 100% supervision even in seemingly "baby proof" environments. After that, they need education, not training.

1. I can move a VCR but not my house. I'm telling you how to train YOUR child. Mine are trained. No touch electrical outlets. No touch daddy's porcelain collectible. No touch sister's face. No touch. YOU can run around behind your kids moving stuff like your their servant. I serve my kids but I'm not their employee.

2. You constantly supervised your kids? I did not. The Pearls open the book with a story about "go play and let mommy talk" and the mom is unstressed and talking with her friends and the kids are having fun elsewhere nearby, safely.

3. YES training gives Pavlovian responses. Are you saying your children are not animals? Are they made in God's image? Why would your kids' hands slip? They couldn't because you constantly held their hands 24 hours?

I think we're both trying to be good parents here. You do not train your kids. I understand. I both educated and trained my children. TRAIN a child in the way he should go...
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20-11-2013, 04:02 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:02 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, you said it. Far more work. You can pull them off ten times a day times 200 days running or you can pull their hair not even enough to make them leave off sucking but to stop biting you.
No one ever said parenting isn't a lot of work. People who aren't willing to do the work shouldn't be parents.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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20-11-2013, 04:07 PM
RE: To train up a child
Blowme...pulling the hair of an infant isn't stimulus, it's abuse...you ignorant fuck.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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