To train up a child
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20-11-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 04:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1. I can move a VCR but not my house. I'm telling you how to train YOUR child. Mine are trained. No touch electrical outlets. No touch daddy's porcelain collectible. No touch sister's face. No touch. YOU can run around behind your kids moving stuff like your their servant. I serve my kids but I'm not their employee.
Why would you need to move your house? My entire house was child proof within reason. But that was NEVER a substitute for supervising them. It was only just in case...

(20-11-2013 04:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2. You constantly supervised your kids? I did not. The Pearls open the book with a story about "go play and let mommy talk" and the mom is unstressed and talking with her friends and the kids are having fun elsewhere nearby, safely.
Go play and let mommy talk? I repeat (from a different post in this thread), if you aren't willing to do the work, then you shouldn't be a parent. "Go play" is fine as long as it's within sight in a safe area and you are watching them while having your conversation.

(20-11-2013 04:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  3. YES training gives Pavlovian responses. Are you saying your children are not animals? Are they made in God's image? Why would your kids' hands slip? They couldn't because you constantly held their hands 24 hours?
Technically, we are all animals. But practically and logically we separate humans from animals for good reasons. Would you cook and eat your kids? I didn't think so! Kids have far greater cognitive ability for learning and it should be used. That's not possible with animals. (However, training with animals has its limits too before it becomes too cruel, but that's a whole other topic.)

BUT, I find it very interesting that you are a Christian, but YOU believe your kids are animals. They are animals because of evolution, but somehow I don't think that's your reasoning. Furthermore, your god supposedly gave humans dominion over animals. How does that have any meaning if humans are also animals?

And no, I did not hold my kids' hands 24 hours, but I did ALWAYS whenever not holding their hands risked life-threatening or otherwise very serious danger.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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20-11-2013, 04:28 PM
RE: To train up a child
I also question whether a flick on a sensitive portion of an infant's body is not pain. What else is it? If you are just trying to get attention wouldn't a feather achieve the same? Did they draw back their hand immediately? If so- plain and simple pain , no matter how you'd like to excuse away your support of barbarism.
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20-11-2013, 04:33 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2013 04:59 PM by Adrianime.)
RE: To train up a child
Holy shinikeez this thread is all over the place. I wasn't even going to address PleaseJesus until I saw this:

PleaseJesus Wrote:I will NEVER forget asking my kids, "How do you know mom and I love you?" and their response was "Because you discipline us when we do wrong."

Where the bolded part is a HUGE SIGN OF ABUSE.

But anyways, aside from this group intervention, or whatever the hell is going on here, my thoughts on the actual article..

First, DAMN I thought we were smarter than that here in Washington Sad. I read what the girl went through and it is horrible. I seriously wish parents had to take a test, and get yearly checkups to reproduce. The effed up thing is these people adopted her, so THEY DID have to go through applications and check ups. I mean what the eff...

Growing up in an abusive household, as many of us have apparently, makes it pretty easy to spot abuse. It also makes us more sensitive to the subject. However, in terms of child discipline, I'm not totally opposed to minor physical punishment such as spankings or a slap on the wrist (physical punishments usually for instances of outright defiance or doing something extremely behaviorally or physically bad). However NEVER should any instruments be used. NEVER should a child be punished physically without understanding WHY they are being punished (you don't freaking give pain (under the guise of stimulus, wth?) to an infant or any other child too young to understand what they are doing wrong). That only instills fear, and it isn't healthy.

*sigh* What kids need is love, affection, attention, and honest caring of them as individuals. Punishment is necessary when it is, but the type of punishment I give my kids would be something I would be completely comfortable standing up in front of a crowd of strangers or my friends and disclosing. And if I ever asked my kids, "How do you know mom and dad love you?" I would hope they would say, "Well it's obvious! You care about me, you make me happy, you teach me about the world, and I am important to you."

None of this, "Daddy beats you cuz he loves you" crap. I hope I just read that previous post wrong..
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20-11-2013, 04:34 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 04:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  1. No pain? Are you sure? I don't see how you can be certain every time. Anyway, what's the point when you can just move the VCR?

2. Other people's houses were never a problem for my kids or me because I constantly supervised them. They always came and still come first. If some other parent wanted to talk to me and I couldn't pay attention to both, the other parent lost out. They can wait. They can understand. Children in potential danger can't wait. But, yes, it is also useful to teach kids "stop". I just don't agree with your method. My kids learned "stop" just fine without any flicking.

3. Why would your kids' hands slip? And, again, teaching "stop" (without the flicking) is fine as a backup measure, but just not as a first choice.

Finally, obedience has it's place, but most of the time I don't want my kids to be merely obedient. I want them to know what the right choices are and to make them before I have to ask or tell them to do anything differently. Training gives Pavlovian responses. Education gives understanding so they are enabled and motivated to make the smarter choices independently. When they are too young to do this, then they need 100% supervision even in seemingly "baby proof" environments. After that, they need education, not training.

1. I can move a VCR but not my house. I'm telling you how to train YOUR child. Mine are trained. No touch electrical outlets. No touch daddy's porcelain collectible. No touch sister's face. No touch. YOU can run around behind your kids moving stuff like your their servant. I serve my kids but I'm not their employee.

2. You constantly supervised your kids? I did not. The Pearls open the book with a story about "go play and let mommy talk" and the mom is unstressed and talking with her friends and the kids are having fun elsewhere nearby, safely.

3. YES training gives Pavlovian responses. Are you saying your children are not animals? Are they made in God's image? Why would your kids' hands slip? They couldn't because you constantly held their hands 24 hours?

I think we're both trying to be good parents here. You do not train your kids. I understand. I both educated and trained my children. TRAIN a child in the way he should go...

Funny....again, I never moved anything and didn't bother locking cabinets either. Chemicals were put high up, when the boys were super small. I also don't constantly supervise my kids. There were "safe" areas the kids would play without worry. Again, all achieved without spanking. The kids always held a grown up's hand when walking anywhere in public. Never allowed to bounce on the bed (my husband works in a hospital and has taken waaay too many X-rays of kids injured from jumping on the bed). Anytime we left the house toys were cleaned up. Beds are made daily. Rooms are naturally kept tidy, dirty clothing is put in the hamper (or it's not washed). Plenty of play tho, soccer, boy scouts, arts and crafts...camping in the woods...playing with friends.

The only place I routinely worried about my kids when they were very small, was at my husband's grandma's home. She would drop pills on the floor.

Spanking and most of the things described by the pearls are simply lazy,


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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20-11-2013, 04:45 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 01:52 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm not sure I want to go further with this point until people actually respond to my training-an-11-month-old post.
OK, ordinarily I don't tell parents how to parent or critique their style, but you have asked so...

(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  My son is eleven months old. He can't communicate much verbally but he can crawl and walk some. Back in the day, we have a VCR underneath the living room TV on the carpeted floor. He likes the flashing lights, the noises, the warmth. He crawls toward it. Our ideal moment to begin training! We can move the electrical equipment higher or use an opportunity or both?
Context:
Age - 11 months
Behaviour - attracted to flashing lights and noises (no doubt wants to explore new things)
Situation - Exploring the VCR
Risks - Turn the channel, put items into VCR
Dangers - No danger of harm to child
Mitigation - Put VCR out of reach, put a child protector in VCR to stop young kids putting things in it, teach by verbally discouraging behaviour, teach by associating pain and intimidation with activity.

Now lets look at the risks and dangers of each mitigation method:
Put VCR out of reach:
Effectiveness - 100%
Long term result - Child has not been trained to not explore things, child has not been trained to do as it is told. Child bears no resentment towards parents.
Put a child protector in VCR to stop young kids putting things in it
Effectiveness - 100%
Long term result - Child has not been trained to not explore things, child has not been trained to do as it is told. Child bears no resentment towards parents.
Teach by verbally discouraging behaviour
Effectiveness - 0-5% (a guess)
Long term result - Small chance child has been trained to not explore VCR, small chance child has been trained to do as it is told. Maybe as child grows up (to adulthood) it looks to people for permission before it does things, tries things. Maybe when it has children it phones up parents for advise/permission on how to parent its own children. Child bears no resentment towards parents but struggles to make independant decisions.
Teach by associating pain and intimidation with activity.
Effectiveness - 0-20% (a guess)
Long term result - Chance child has been trained to not explore, chance child has been trained to do as it is told out of fear of making mistakes. Maybe as child grows up (to adulthood) it looks to people for permission before it does things, maybe it hides activities from parents (seeing them as imtimidating obstacles rather than supportive). Maybe when it is an adult it is scared to try new things, try new ways, maybe it instills same method on its own children. Child bears much resentment towards parents struggling to justify the pain and abuse a large adult has put onto small children.


Personally, I don't like your approach. I would never hurt my children (especially pre 1 year old) on trivial things like playing with VCR. I might get more drastic with regards to life threatening situations e.g. playing with power socket, playing on road, but would try other means e.g. socket protector, fence, before taking drastic and violent steps.
But it's your choice, your children. I respect that you are the parent and bringing them up is your responsibility.
I want my children to grow up with confidence, with a "rather say sorry than ask permission" attitude. Obedience and fear is not want I want from them.
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20-11-2013, 05:07 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You do know that some normal parents spank their kids
Spank a breastfeeding baby???????
In NZ it is illegal to spank children.
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20-11-2013, 06:44 PM
RE: To train up a child
The Author(s) sicken me, and the people stupid enough to take the author(s) advice sicken me.

Wackiness seems like an infection that grows at an ever increasing rate in today's society.
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20-11-2013, 06:50 PM
RE: To train up a child
Six other kids have been killed by ignorant parents reading this book.
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20-11-2013, 06:54 PM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2013 08:14 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:27 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  So, PJ is more concerned about public embarrassment from children than the emotional development of children, and is only experienced in socializing within like-minded circles. People who believe children are less than animals, that children are nothing more than extensions of their own identities. People who need a doll collection and to be eventually selected out of the population. Angry

Huh?!

I'm concerned that when you see two-year-olds dominating their parents at the mall, those same kids grow up to be adult brats, too. Period.

My kids reflected/reflect God and a proper upbringing. It is validating and lovely to have own's own parents say "Your marriage is strong and your kids are marvelous. Everyone loves them, they are respectful and good natured." It's very affirming and Bible affirming as well.

Um no. Not at all. Children in various stages of development have meltdowns. It is the fault of the parents by taking an overstimulated child to that environment. You seem to think that normal children's behavior should be something to be ashamed of. I bet you also hit your kids for playing doctor with other kids too. Any hand to genital or genital to genital contact is wrong, right? ( Even though this is normal child development and has NOTHING to do with sex but with a natural curiousity of their genitals.)

I am a well rounded, college educated, compassionate person. I grew up with god loving parents so you can't tell me that my behavior at age two was because of my "heathen" parents. I had meltdowns in the store. I did not "turn into a bratty adult. Period." And I take issue with you applying those blanket statements - you know - the ones you hate.

I admonish and scorn your wife for hurting your newborn baby just because of a little bit to the nipple. She pushed a baby out of her vagina, she can't handle a little biting? What a horrible, weak person she is. Surely the desire to bond with her child would override the discomfort of being nibbled on.

I train dogs for a search and rescue K-9 unit that I run. Search and rescue for live persons and HRD (human remains detection). I've been doing it for 10 years. You do NOT know more about dog training than I do. Training dogs to sit, speak, come, stay, or even a parlor trick or two is child's play compared to what I do. I train a dog to range ahead a specific distance from me for human scent, and upon finding a victim, will run back and alert me, then refind the victim. He is also trained to find a single drop of blood with a whole other set of alerts and refinds since it's often a crime scene we are discovering. This amount of training is leaps and bounds above any "roll over" or "get the newspaper" tricks. I also have trained service dogs for Warrior Canine Connection. It's also worth noting that my K-9 unit is 100% volunteer. I do it because I want to help my community in times of need and dog training is a tangible skill set I have. Rather than just "praying" for people affected by tornados or collapsed buildings or simply going for a walk and never coming home, I strap on my boots and get off my ass to help...which doesn't seem to mesh well with your idea that atheists are these terrible, moral less, rutterless sinners. But I digress...

Successful dog training only occurs with POSITIVE reinforcement. You should NEVER hit a dog because you have no idea what you are doing when you hit. A dog doesn't have a train of thought where they can reflect on multiple actions. For example, Here is a scenario. You see fido digging up the flower bed. You yell "NO!!" And call him over to you. Then you hit him. Now, what you have done is just punish the last thing they did, which is come to you. He doesn't understand that you are punishing him for digging up the garden bed. Even if you show him by pointing to it and saying "no". He has no idea why you are saying no and that's why he will continue to do it.

The only way physical punishment works is if it happens during the action. For example,
Snake proofing is something I must do for their safety. It's the ONLY time negative punishment is issued. The dogs wears a shock collar. A rattlesnake in a cage is introduced (or whatever is indigenous to the area, for me, it's timber rattlers). The dog is set loose and no one interferes until he discovers the snake on his own. If I were to lead him to the snake, then deliver the correction, I am only correcting the fact that he followed me somewhere.

So the dog must discover the snake on his own. When he approaches the cage and sniffs, THEN and only then does he get the shock.

Don't hit your dog. By hitting your dog you demonstrate that the only arrow in your quiver is a wet noodle. Surely you can think of better ways of outsmarting your dog than simply hitting him.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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20-11-2013, 07:22 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, now, I am encouraged. I wish I had brought up this subject months ago--I think a solid bit of evidence for God's existence--the Judeo-Christian God--is how one might apply the biblical framework for child raising and raise little angels instead of little devils, or--if you don't mind my frankness, little atheists.

I do appreciate the person who wrote to say they were in counseling and working through some of the issues of the past from this sort of idea--I sincerely hope my words here will help them to understand and figure whether her parents were abusive or not—that is an obvious, important distinction.

BB, I mistyped if I said my daughter was starting at Yale--she applied to Yale and rocked her interview--she has a community college degree and decided to be a junior elsewhere--Yale would have started her again as a freshman and dropped over 60 credits...

I'll clarify, too, since this is a thread about the Pearls's book--I've bought copies of the book and given them to others--I apply many of their techniques but not to the degree to which they do--they are WAY beyond what many or most Christians do.

First again, do take personal stock, folks. I'm most surprised that some of you react so strongly to this concept of withholding food. Really? None of you had atheist parents who when you refused to eat the hot dog mom made for dinner, said, "Sit there and eat it and learn some respect--people are starving in Africa" or even "This goes in the fridge now and in the microwave for you in an hour when you're really hungry, our home is not a restaurant and we're all eating hot dogs tonight…"?

Really? None of you had parents that did stuff like that? Mine did--they weren't born again, either. Again, the Pearls go further to serving the hot dogs the next day for breakfast, but...

**

So, let's start with very young child "training". TRAINING, not discipline or punishment. I think the Pearls say six months, but again...

Moving on, my real life story. You can read it and decide whether I should be executed and flogged like Christ (reverse that order) or merely imprisoned, okay? Of course, your mocking and cursing me is like always, free of cost here at The Thinking Atheist (mind you, I have high hopes of this site changing its name to a plural one soon—just kidding)!

**

My son is eleven months old. He can't communicate much verbally but he can crawl and walk some. Back in the day, we have a VCR underneath the living room TV on the carpeted floor. He likes the flashing lights, the noises, the warmth. He crawls toward it. Our ideal moment to begin training! We can move the electrical equipment higher or use an opportunity or both?

Mom and I say, "No touch" with a bright, pleasant voice. Think Barbara Woodhouse saying "walkies!" No touch! No touch, son! Happy, soft, bright, not angry or abusive.

My boy regards us for a moment as we are near him and he is near the VCR. Wheels turn in his head. He reaches out to touch the VCR then hesitates. "No touch!" we say with a smile. He touches. We kill him! No...! Just foolin’ round with you people.

Here's what we did back then...

We take his tiny 11-year old precious hand gently in one of our hands. With the other we flick the soft skin that webs between his thumb and forefinger. Like the way you flick an "okay" sign made with a thumb and one finger on your hand, like you're propelling a marble--only far gentler.

He shouts in pain!  No, it wasn't nearly enough to cause discomfort. It's merely a stimulus.

We say no touch, he reaches for the VCR again and we flick again. No touch! Walkies!

Do you know what an 11-month-old can do mentally? A LOT. He looks at us silently, he looks at the VCR. He is both a Pavlovian child being trained and he's at the same trying to TEST US. Will the big people flick me if I reach out again after they say no? Should I or shouldn’t I? “I’m pretty powerful. I poop my pants or burp and they come running. Can I master them and this environment? Am I subject to rule of law?”

Maybe I’m exaggerating a little here but since it takes a Cray weeks to do what a human can cogitate in seconds…

…All this takes about 30 seconds. Three touches or attempts and flicks. About a day or two later, there's two touches and two more flicks.

**
Result of one minute of training an infant:

Other than the obvious like hiding household poisons, cleaning solvents and medicines, we didn't really need to childproof our house much. We could say "No touch" gently to my son until he was 5 (?) or whatever age was too old for that phrase. We could go to a friend's home, one without small children, who had glassware everywhere and precious collectibles and snacks on the table, look at our child reach out or look and say "no touch" and that's it. No discipline, no threats, no harsh words. Just no touch and he’d find something else to amuse himself or come to us to do something else more fun...

Just as important--and I apologize for jumping ahead in my story--we could say "Stop" to our children while they walked and they--stopped. Several times they were saved from stepping in front of cars and other vehicles when we were carrying groceries or whatever.

Training a child isn't for everyone at every level--but it can be a matter of life or death.

We've just begun my real life stories so now you can flame me, affirm me or question me, and I can decide whether I ought to continue my real life stories or just “disappear” like I’m accused of when I actually take more than 12 hours to sleep and shower before replying to you!

For people who say they want an atheist-only forum, you sure do seem to love my posts.

One TRAINS a dog. One RAISES a child. Huge diff.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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