To train up a child
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20-11-2013, 07:46 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 04:33 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  None of this, "Daddy beats you cuz he loves you" crap. I hope I just read that previous post wrong..

I wrote a whole another thread about this phenomenon. It is tied to the entire mentality that god punishes us because he loves us. He wants what's best for us, it's all a part of us plan. We must be the problem. I'm not surprised at all that PJ would have that mentality and the cycle of abuse continued with his kids

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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20-11-2013, 08:13 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 02:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:34 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Here's what I have a problem with in the book. These are direct citations:

When the baby bit, she pulled hair (an alternative has to be sought for baldheaded babies). Understand, the baby is not being punished, just conditioned.
Conditioned. Punished. It's semantics. It's an infant, and you are causing it deliberate pain. I wonder what the 'alternative' is for bald headed babies... Unsure

Remember, Pearl does not advocate striking with the hand (so PJ's finger flick is not following the rules). Hands are for love and kindness, thus his instructions to use a rod to inflict pain. Yes, pain is the actual word.

At four months she was too unknowing to be punished for disobedience. But for her own good, we attempted to train her not to climb the stairs by coordinating the voice command of "No" with little spats on the bare legs. The switch was a twelve-inch long, one-eighth-inch diameter sprig from a willow tree.
Again, using pain as a training stimulus on a 4 month old. Is this necessary? How useful is this, really?

She then administers about ten slow, patient licks on his bare legs. He cries in pain. If he continues to show defiance by jerking around and defending himself, or by expressing anger, then she will wait a moment and again lecture him and again spank him. When it is obvious he is totally broken, she will hand him the rag and very calmly say, "Johnny, clean up your mess."
Inflict pain until 'totally broken.'

After about ten acts of stubborn defiance, followed by ten switchings, he surrendered his will to one higher than himself.
Dominance through pain.

Show them examples. Expose them to death--the death of a pet, or an accident victim. This must be done with calm, confident reverence, not with fear. Don't be excessive. One or two examples to a three-year-old is enough.
Show a three-year-old an accident victim. Did you do this?

If he is roughed-up by his peers, rejoice; he is learning early about the real world. Don't make a sissy out of him. If you jump to his defense every time another child takes away a toy, pushes your child down, or even pops him in the nose, you will rear a social crybaby.
I can name several kids I went to high school with who were mercilessly picked on and harmed by bigger kids. Two committed suicide. What did they learn? That a pack of 200 pound meat heads will always dominate a small skinny kid. There are some battles kids cannot win and should not have to fight alone.

And finally, Mr. Pearl has no formal degree or training in child development. PJ, I bet you didn't show your toddler an accident victim or hit them with a switch 100 times (ten sets of ten, people) to 'break' them. I bet if your kid got beat up every week for years (happened at my school), you wouldn't tell him to 'toughen up.'

Come on... this book has some serious flaws, the least of which is the fact that Pearl has no formal training in child psychology. Don't be so obtuse.

The finger flick does follow the "rules". It was not designed to cause pain, only stimulus.

You are jumping ahead, though. I'm not ready to talk more about other methods until I get some critical, honest feedback about the VCR training.

PS. A little teaser, though, my wife breastfed our babies and was happy to know how to stop them from biting her nipples!

Pulling a baby's hair while he/she is nursing is horrible. It makes me sick to think about it.

The Pearls' book is full of shit and anyone advocates it is full of shit too. My children are kind and gentle, and I like to believe it is because I am kind and gentle to them. To avoid crisis while shopping; I let them help me shop. I get complimented all the time on how well behaved my children are. It is possible to raise (not train like a freakin mule) a child to be well behaved and respectful without hurting them or scaring them into submission.
Also, why on earth would you flick a baby when you could just move the VCR?
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20-11-2013, 08:27 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2. There are consequences for choosing to follow your plan rather than God's. Just saying.


Boy, are you ever an arrogant fuckwit. You admit to abusing your children and turn around and pander your idiotic superstitions at others as if you were some authority on parenting. You take the fucking cake.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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20-11-2013, 08:32 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 06:50 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Six other kids have been killed by ignorant parents [LIKE PLEASEJESUZFUCKINGCHRIST] reading this book.


fixed!

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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21-11-2013, 01:00 AM
RE: To train up a child
Ok, I have got to get in on this one.

I was raised by my mother / step-father. Both are Christians. Both are fundamentalists. Church was three days a week, for three hours a session, with biblical conversations and references in between. I knew more bible by my early teens than many of the adults in the church.

I am now an atheist. I have made a complete turnaround in my religious beliefs. I am not, however, a Christian hater. I continue to have many religious friends and coworkers. And, I still occasionally go to church with my parents when I visit.

So, I am going to view this as openly as I can. Religious belief aside for a moment.

I was spanked as a child. I was never struck hard enough to leave a mark, but a certain amount of pain was involved. I was also brought up to be absolutely submissive to my parents. If they told me to do something, it was to be done. "Because I told you so" was a common phrase. Teaching respect for authority was the reason I have heard them give when coaching other parents on these subjects.

Now, as an adult, I have the freedom and will to do as I please. I have, on occasion, told my parents "no" as an adult. I am a free thinker and cognitively functional. In short, I am normal.

I do not feel that I was abused. Nor do I think less of my parents for correcting me this way. However, the lessons that I remember and hold dear, do not involve any physical action. I can recall, in total detail, many lessons administered by discussing the issue and forming a logical response. (including a fit punishment, such as correcting my mistake or doing extra chores to "pay for the damages")

I do not recall a single incident where being spanked changed my view of the world. It changed my actions. But, my understanding of the reason was that "If I do this, then I will be smacked" not "This is wrong because..."

There have been a few cases where real danger was involved. Walking into traffic as you mentioned was one such case. In every instance, my parent yelled "STOP!", and I knew by the tone of their voice that danger was near. No fear, no pain, no subconscious training. I simply knew. There is more to verbal communication than words alone can express.

Now, as the correcting of a toddler is concerned, I don't have much issue with your approach. Toddlers (particularly when speech not developed) respond much like dogs. I agree with you on that. But, this is a very fine line. Positive and negative stimuli are fine if used in conjunction. Pain is never ok with a small child. Flicking or patting the child's hand is not a painful action unless it is done with force. (flick your own hand folks) But, keep in mind the positive side of this equation. It seems we are debating strictly the punishment. Lets back up and look at the bigger picture. Painless negative is ok, so long as it is balanced with positive. (I'm not saying our Christian friend here is guilty of denying positive reinforcement. Just as a general rule.)

On to school age. For most of my youth, I was afraid to do any new things. My parents would always respond to the negative actions. (This is understandable. See problem = fix problem) My father told me once that the reason he didn't praise me was that praise shouldn't be needed to do the right thing. He was technically correct. But, we are not discussing a functional adult here. Children are learning. They don't necessarily understand why things are good or bad. If there is no praise, no positive reinforcement, then they will develop a negative view of the world regardless of the method used. As I did. (I am not saying you are guilty of this sir. I have not seen any evidence to suggest it. Simply stating truth here.)

Another problem was with the absolute submission idea. Doing what you are told simply because it was told is not the best way to live your life. I made several big mistakes in early adulthood because I could not bring myself to go against my parents wishes. I am still recovering from some of them. It was separation at college that finally broke that bond. I still to this day cringe when my father gives me advice that I don't agree with. I cant carry a reasonable debate with him because I still feel this guilty grinding feeling at the idea of stating my own opinions. Even after all this time. Is that a reasonable response? Not open rebellion. I am talking about simply not having the ability to engage in a discussion.

This is the main problem I see with the approaches in the book. No matter how much you water them down. No matter how gentle you are. They are still designed and intended to be a control device. They are not teaching. They are training. There is an important difference there.

Infliction of pain to the degree that I was exposed to was not itself traumatic. I have hurt myself far worse being stupid than my parents ever did with a belt. As I said above, I don't remember the spankings. I know that they happened, I know that they were unpleasant, but I can not recall the cause nor do I feel they were particularly harmful. The extremism seen in the book and the reports of what parents have done are absolutely criminal. I do not condone pain (hunger is pain too) as a good tool. But, I don't think that simply smacking a child constitutes abuse either. Especially If it is only to the degree of the finger flicking thing. The balance of teaching vs the force of training is the real battle here IMO.

"Your mind is twice a valuable as your body. And your ears are twice as valuable as your mouth. People will pay you based on which you use." - A very smart old lawyer
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21-11-2013, 03:28 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:47 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  You don't follow the rules at all, thankfully. The specific word Pearl uses, over and over, is pain. And you're supposed to use an object, not your hand, to inflict this 'stimulus.' But good on you for not hitting your toddler with a switch... which is EXACTLY what Pearl recommends.


I liked your VCR training. Tongue


[Image: 8131408032_68b29ae6a8_z.jpg]

You do know that some normal parents spank their kids, and that spanking makes kids cry (sometimes)? Spanking can be instructive or abusive. So can Bible study. So can visiting TTA. So can most anything. Context, my brother, context.

And this Tongue makes me uncertain--did you really like my VCR training?

Yahweh thought some infants and children deserved death:

“All those who are found will be stabbed, all those captured will fall by the sword, their babies dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses plundered, their wives raped. Look, against them I am stirring up the Medes who care nothing for silver, who set no value by gold. Bows will annihilate the young men, they will have no pity for the fruit of the womb, or mercy in their eyes for children” (Isa. 13:15–18, NJB.)

“Ephraim is blasted, their root has dried out, they will bear no more fruit. And even if they do bear children I shall slaughter the darlings of their womb” (Hosea 9:16, NJB.)

“A blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against rock” (Ps. 137:9, NJB.)

Even the unborn weren’t safe:

“Samaria will pay the penalty for having rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women disemboweled” (Hosea 14:1, NJB.)

God ordered the killing of boys, and women who weren’t virgins:

“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him” (Num. 31:17, NJB.)

PJ, you write "Context, my brother, context."
I want to know... in what context is it okay to
-smash babies onto rocks,
-slaughter children,
-dash children to pieces,
-disembowel pregnant women,
-and kill little boys?
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21-11-2013, 03:47 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:34 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I would have a horrible time following a god that required me to beat a child to force them to behave. In the case of my special needs child, he would have likely become violent as a consequence.

That said thank you.

And therefore my disclaimers! I spanked my children, I never beat them. Most normal Christians are not the Pearls, it's very, very hard to spank our kids. We don't want to do it...

But no, kids should be forced to behave in certain ways because they are not adults. If you've ever said, "not in my home, kid" you've demanded obedience to a certain standard or behavior.

Kids should be forced to pay attention in school unless they need to have a problem addressed differently like Autism or severe ADHD.

Kids should be forced to flush the toilet, brush their teeth, and frankly, read their Bibles... Smile

RE "Kids should be forced to.... read their Bibles..."

Yes yes yes! Please, PJ, please, get your kids to actually read the bible.

As Mark Twain said, it's the best cure for Christianity.
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21-11-2013, 07:12 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 03:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And therefore my disclaimers! I spanked my children, I never beat them. Most normal Christians are not the Pearls, it's very, very hard to spank our kids. We don't want to do it...

But no, kids should be forced to behave in certain ways because they are not adults. If you've ever said, "not in my home, kid" you've demanded obedience to a certain standard or behavior.

Kids should be forced to pay attention in school unless they need to have a problem addressed differently like Autism or severe ADHD.

Kids should be forced to flush the toilet, brush their teeth, and frankly, read their Bibles... Smile

I don't get this. You say beating your kids (spanking beating it's the same damn thing, especially by the Pearls' definition if spanking. Also where do you get off saying 'normal' parents spank their kids? I call BS on that) is so effective, yet you have to force them to brush their teeth and flush the toilet? I have never had to force my children to flush the toilet. -_-
The bible is rated R and not to be read by children, if you insist on teaching them nonsense please at least use a children's bible. Be responsible. And stop handing out that book when you obviously do not agree with it. BE RESPONSIBLE!!
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21-11-2013, 08:13 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 04:28 PM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  I also question whether a flick on a sensitive portion of an infant's body is not pain. What else is it? If you are just trying to get attention wouldn't a feather achieve the same? Did they draw back their hand immediately? If so- plain and simple pain , no matter how you'd like to excuse away your support of barbarism.

They didn't even withdraw their hands, they just looked at us. For the first time, they became aware of their level of control and their free will ability to be proactive, not reactive. Let's not gloss over these facts.
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21-11-2013, 08:15 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 04:07 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Blowme...pulling the hair of an infant isn't stimulus, it's abuse...you ignorant fuck.

Hi Anj,

Did you never pull a sister's or brother's hair and have mom or dad respond, "How would you like it if they did the same to you?"

Experience can be more important than words. My spouse didn't pull hair, come to think of it, but said is off topic.
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