To train up a child
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21-11-2013, 08:18 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 04:34 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 04:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1. I can move a VCR but not my house. I'm telling you how to train YOUR child. Mine are trained. No touch electrical outlets. No touch daddy's porcelain collectible. No touch sister's face. No touch. YOU can run around behind your kids moving stuff like your their servant. I serve my kids but I'm not their employee.

2. You constantly supervised your kids? I did not. The Pearls open the book with a story about "go play and let mommy talk" and the mom is unstressed and talking with her friends and the kids are having fun elsewhere nearby, safely.

3. YES training gives Pavlovian responses. Are you saying your children are not animals? Are they made in God's image? Why would your kids' hands slip? They couldn't because you constantly held their hands 24 hours?

I think we're both trying to be good parents here. You do not train your kids. I understand. I both educated and trained my children. TRAIN a child in the way he should go...

Funny....again, I never moved anything and didn't bother locking cabinets either. Chemicals were put high up, when the boys were super small. I also don't constantly supervise my kids. There were "safe" areas the kids would play without worry. Again, all achieved without spanking. The kids always held a grown up's hand when walking anywhere in public. Never allowed to bounce on the bed (my husband works in a hospital and has taken waaay too many X-rays of kids injured from jumping on the bed). Anytime we left the house toys were cleaned up. Beds are made daily. Rooms are naturally kept tidy, dirty clothing is put in the hamper (or it's not washed). Plenty of play tho, soccer, boy scouts, arts and crafts...camping in the woods...playing with friends.

The only place I routinely worried about my kids when they were very small, was at my husband's grandma's home. She would drop pills on the floor.

Spanking and most of the things described by the pearls are simply lazy,

Have you spoken with Christian parents who 8 times a day at times sit the child down, lovingly and patiently tell the child what they've done wrong, get the child's response, then patiently and without a trace of anger spank? It's a lot of work and a lot of patience. If one is angry and wants to spank, one simply does not spank. It's a LOT of work.

We agree that parenting accurately is a LOT of work but is worth it both for what it teaches us about love and the fruit we see in the children.
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21-11-2013, 08:23 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 04:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 01:52 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm not sure I want to go further with this point until people actually respond to my training-an-11-month-old post.
OK, ordinarily I don't tell parents how to parent or critique their style, but you have asked so...

(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  My son is eleven months old. He can't communicate much verbally but he can crawl and walk some. Back in the day, we have a VCR underneath the living room TV on the carpeted floor. He likes the flashing lights, the noises, the warmth. He crawls toward it. Our ideal moment to begin training! We can move the electrical equipment higher or use an opportunity or both?
Context:
Age - 11 months
Behaviour - attracted to flashing lights and noises (no doubt wants to explore new things)
Situation - Exploring the VCR
Risks - Turn the channel, put items into VCR
Dangers - No danger of harm to child
Mitigation - Put VCR out of reach, put a child protector in VCR to stop young kids putting things in it, teach by verbally discouraging behaviour, teach by associating pain and intimidation with activity.

Now lets look at the risks and dangers of each mitigation method:
Put VCR out of reach:
Effectiveness - 100%
Long term result - Child has not been trained to not explore things, child has not been trained to do as it is told. Child bears no resentment towards parents.
Put a child protector in VCR to stop young kids putting things in it
Effectiveness - 100%
Long term result - Child has not been trained to not explore things, child has not been trained to do as it is told. Child bears no resentment towards parents.
Teach by verbally discouraging behaviour
Effectiveness - 0-5% (a guess)
Long term result - Small chance child has been trained to not explore VCR, small chance child has been trained to do as it is told. Maybe as child grows up (to adulthood) it looks to people for permission before it does things, tries things. Maybe when it has children it phones up parents for advise/permission on how to parent its own children. Child bears no resentment towards parents but struggles to make independant decisions.
Teach by associating pain and intimidation with activity.
Effectiveness - 0-20% (a guess)
Long term result - Chance child has been trained to not explore, chance child has been trained to do as it is told out of fear of making mistakes. Maybe as child grows up (to adulthood) it looks to people for permission before it does things, maybe it hides activities from parents (seeing them as imtimidating obstacles rather than supportive). Maybe when it is an adult it is scared to try new things, try new ways, maybe it instills same method on its own children. Child bears much resentment towards parents struggling to justify the pain and abuse a large adult has put onto small children.


Personally, I don't like your approach. I would never hurt my children (especially pre 1 year old) on trivial things like playing with VCR. I might get more drastic with regards to life threatening situations e.g. playing with power socket, playing on road, but would try other means e.g. socket protector, fence, before taking drastic and violent steps.
But it's your choice, your children. I respect that you are the parent and bringing them up is your responsibility.
I want my children to grow up with confidence, with a "rather say sorry than ask permission" attitude. Obedience and fear is not want I want from them.

Hi Stevil,

1) My children are in the hopper and the measurable outcomes were nowhere near your description. Children I know in my church movement, a group of churches that emphasizes character over seminary education and families over--well--anything--is filled with young people who've grown to become civic, evangelistic and life leaders and influencers with thousands of positive outcomes.

2) If anyone is sincerely interested, I can also speak with vulnerability about the times I've failed in parenting. But there's a definite pall here where respondents are talking about ideal and idealistic child rearing without being honest--parents who don't spank can lose their cool, yell at their children, threaten to spank and never do it, resent their children, put them in time out--which is something I've never done to my children, etc. MomSBB was very honest by contrast--and said she rarely got angry with her lovely kids--spanking in the Christian manner prevents a parent from going to Defcon 1 and getting angry (much), helps the children to feel cleansed and forgiven, and keep the children from being bratty and the parents from becoming tyrants.
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21-11-2013, 08:27 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 05:07 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You do know that some normal parents spank their kids
Spank a breastfeeding baby???????
In NZ it is illegal to spank children.

Slow down there, please, if you would, and read the posts for contest--even more important since you cannot see or hear me and online words without nonverbals is hard to digest accurately.

Spanking is for toddlers who can talk and willfully tell a parent "No!". Stimulus without pain is for infants--and even then, for about ten months old and up--we're not the Pearls--then again their children are more obedient than mine!
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21-11-2013, 08:29 AM
RE: To train up a child
FFS that was one of the most difficult threads to catch up on.
God I hope you be trolling PJ, for The sake of your children, if they exist that is.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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21-11-2013, 08:30 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 06:50 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Six other kids have been killed by ignorant parents reading this book.

Ignorant being the operative word here. Doesn't the Bible also say, "Beat your child with the rod, beat him and he WON'T die. Beat him with the rod and save his soul from Hell..."?

A spanking makes you cry, not die! Psychos read books, too. Karl Mark and Adolf Hitler (Godwin again!) read the Bible. Lot of good it did them.

Most of the Christians I know (okay, all of them) who read the Pearls book are like "Wow, they go really far!" and never go that far--but their kids are like little or big angels. Seriously.

The Pearls are amplifying and perhaps misconstruing Bible principles. Maybe we should talk about those and not just the Pearl book?
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21-11-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: To train up a child
[Image: troll.jpg]

Their shit fills up the new posts list.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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21-11-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 06:54 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Huh?!

I'm concerned that when you see two-year-olds dominating their parents at the mall, those same kids grow up to be adult brats, too. Period.

My kids reflected/reflect God and a proper upbringing. It is validating and lovely to have own's own parents say "Your marriage is strong and your kids are marvelous. Everyone loves them, they are respectful and good natured." It's very affirming and Bible affirming as well.

Um no. Not at all. Children in various stages of development have meltdowns. It is the fault of the parents by taking an overstimulated child to that environment. You seem to think that normal children's behavior should be something to be ashamed of. I bet you also hit your kids for playing doctor with other kids too. Any hand to genital or genital to genital contact is wrong, right? ( Even though this is normal child development and has NOTHING to do with sex but with a natural curiousity of their genitals.)

I am a well rounded, college educated, compassionate person. I grew up with god loving parents so you can't tell me that my behavior at age two was because of my "heathen" parents. I had meltdowns in the store. I did not "turn into a bratty adult. Period." And I take issue with you applying those blanket statements - you know - the ones you hate.

I admonish and scorn your wife for hurting your newborn baby just because of a little bit to the nipple. She pushed a baby out of her vagina, she can't handle a little biting? What a horrible, weak person she is. Surely the desire to bond with her child would override the discomfort of being nibbled on.

I train dogs for a search and rescue K-9 unit that I run. Search and rescue for live persons and HRD (human remains detection). I've been doing it for 10 years. You do NOT know more about dog training than I do. Training dogs to sit, speak, come, stay, or even a parlor trick or two is child's play compared to what I do. I train a dog to range ahead a specific distance from me for human scent, and upon finding a victim, will run back and alert me, then refind the victim. He is also trained to find a single drop of blood with a whole other set of alerts and refinds since it's often a crime scene we are discovering. This amount of training is leaps and bounds above any "roll over" or "get the newspaper" tricks. I also have trained service dogs for Warrior Canine Connection. It's also worth noting that my K-9 unit is 100% volunteer. I do it because I want to help my community in times of need and dog training is a tangible skill set I have. Rather than just "praying" for people affected by tornados or collapsed buildings or simply going for a walk and never coming home, I strap on my boots and get off my ass to help...which doesn't seem to mesh well with your idea that atheists are these terrible, moral less, rutterless sinners. But I digress...

Successful dog training only occurs with POSITIVE reinforcement. You should NEVER hit a dog because you have no idea what you are doing when you hit. A dog doesn't have a train of thought where they can reflect on multiple actions. For example, Here is a scenario. You see fido digging up the flower bed. You yell "NO!!" And call him over to you. Then you hit him. Now, what you have done is just punish the last thing they did, which is come to you. He doesn't understand that you are punishing him for digging up the garden bed. Even if you show him by pointing to it and saying "no". He has no idea why you are saying no and that's why he will continue to do it.

The only way physical punishment works is if it happens during the action. For example,
Snake proofing is something I must do for their safety. It's the ONLY time negative punishment is issued. The dogs wears a shock collar. A rattlesnake in a cage is introduced (or whatever is indigenous to the area, for me, it's timber rattlers). The dog is set loose and no one interferes until he discovers the snake on his own. If I were to lead him to the snake, then deliver the correction, I am only correcting the fact that he followed me somewhere.

So the dog must discover the snake on his own. When he approaches the cage and sniffs, THEN and only then does he get the shock.

Don't hit your dog. By hitting your dog you demonstrate that the only arrow in your quiver is a wet noodle. Surely you can think of better ways of outsmarting your dog than simply hitting him.

I appreciate your work in a helping profession, and I think we're in near total agreement:

1) You never hit a dog. Not ever. My own mom and stepdad have willed most of their money to the ASPCA and similar. I understand. I think dog abusers should be shot.

2) My wife was in the active phase of labor (pushing to ten and breathing) with our eldest not for the typical 30 seconds, but for nearly 30 minutes. There were tremendous complications. Today she is 46 and has run two halves and is training to run a full marathon. She can probably beat the tar out of both of us--plus she's a woman and handles pain better than any man as we know--so your nipple comments are misinformed.

3) The issue isn't that atheists are terrible sinners. The issue is that all men sin, and dogs do not. We need not beat our animals--the Bible says "The righteous man regards the life of his animals" but we do need to spank, not beat, our children for optimal outcomes.
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21-11-2013, 08:40 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 07:22 PM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Well, now, I am encouraged. I wish I had brought up this subject months ago--I think a solid bit of evidence for God's existence--the Judeo-Christian God--is how one might apply the biblical framework for child raising and raise little angels instead of little devils, or--if you don't mind my frankness, little atheists.

I do appreciate the person who wrote to say they were in counseling and working through some of the issues of the past from this sort of idea--I sincerely hope my words here will help them to understand and figure whether her parents were abusive or not—that is an obvious, important distinction.

BB, I mistyped if I said my daughter was starting at Yale--she applied to Yale and rocked her interview--she has a community college degree and decided to be a junior elsewhere--Yale would have started her again as a freshman and dropped over 60 credits...

I'll clarify, too, since this is a thread about the Pearls's book--I've bought copies of the book and given them to others--I apply many of their techniques but not to the degree to which they do--they are WAY beyond what many or most Christians do.

First again, do take personal stock, folks. I'm most surprised that some of you react so strongly to this concept of withholding food. Really? None of you had atheist parents who when you refused to eat the hot dog mom made for dinner, said, "Sit there and eat it and learn some respect--people are starving in Africa" or even "This goes in the fridge now and in the microwave for you in an hour when you're really hungry, our home is not a restaurant and we're all eating hot dogs tonight…"?

Really? None of you had parents that did stuff like that? Mine did--they weren't born again, either. Again, the Pearls go further to serving the hot dogs the next day for breakfast, but...

**

So, let's start with very young child "training". TRAINING, not discipline or punishment. I think the Pearls say six months, but again...

Moving on, my real life story. You can read it and decide whether I should be executed and flogged like Christ (reverse that order) or merely imprisoned, okay? Of course, your mocking and cursing me is like always, free of cost here at The Thinking Atheist (mind you, I have high hopes of this site changing its name to a plural one soon—just kidding)!

**

My son is eleven months old. He can't communicate much verbally but he can crawl and walk some. Back in the day, we have a VCR underneath the living room TV on the carpeted floor. He likes the flashing lights, the noises, the warmth. He crawls toward it. Our ideal moment to begin training! We can move the electrical equipment higher or use an opportunity or both?

Mom and I say, "No touch" with a bright, pleasant voice. Think Barbara Woodhouse saying "walkies!" No touch! No touch, son! Happy, soft, bright, not angry or abusive.

My boy regards us for a moment as we are near him and he is near the VCR. Wheels turn in his head. He reaches out to touch the VCR then hesitates. "No touch!" we say with a smile. He touches. We kill him! No...! Just foolin’ round with you people.

Here's what we did back then...

We take his tiny 11-year old precious hand gently in one of our hands. With the other we flick the soft skin that webs between his thumb and forefinger. Like the way you flick an "okay" sign made with a thumb and one finger on your hand, like you're propelling a marble--only far gentler.

He shouts in pain!  No, it wasn't nearly enough to cause discomfort. It's merely a stimulus.

We say no touch, he reaches for the VCR again and we flick again. No touch! Walkies!

Do you know what an 11-month-old can do mentally? A LOT. He looks at us silently, he looks at the VCR. He is both a Pavlovian child being trained and he's at the same trying to TEST US. Will the big people flick me if I reach out again after they say no? Should I or shouldn’t I? “I’m pretty powerful. I poop my pants or burp and they come running. Can I master them and this environment? Am I subject to rule of law?”

Maybe I’m exaggerating a little here but since it takes a Cray weeks to do what a human can cogitate in seconds…

…All this takes about 30 seconds. Three touches or attempts and flicks. About a day or two later, there's two touches and two more flicks.

**
Result of one minute of training an infant:

Other than the obvious like hiding household poisons, cleaning solvents and medicines, we didn't really need to childproof our house much. We could say "No touch" gently to my son until he was 5 (?) or whatever age was too old for that phrase. We could go to a friend's home, one without small children, who had glassware everywhere and precious collectibles and snacks on the table, look at our child reach out or look and say "no touch" and that's it. No discipline, no threats, no harsh words. Just no touch and he’d find something else to amuse himself or come to us to do something else more fun...

Just as important--and I apologize for jumping ahead in my story--we could say "Stop" to our children while they walked and they--stopped. Several times they were saved from stepping in front of cars and other vehicles when we were carrying groceries or whatever.

Training a child isn't for everyone at every level--but it can be a matter of life or death.

We've just begun my real life stories so now you can flame me, affirm me or question me, and I can decide whether I ought to continue my real life stories or just “disappear” like I’m accused of when I actually take more than 12 hours to sleep and shower before replying to you!

For people who say they want an atheist-only forum, you sure do seem to love my posts.

One TRAINS a dog. One RAISES a child. Huge diff.

Again, I see you see a difference between human animals and non-humans, yet you have BB shouting on other threads that the slightest perceived differences are off (because they undermine evolution towards creation).

On another note,

*you train for the Olympics

*you train your mind with education and Mensa puzzles

*you train your appetite when you diet

*you train for any competition or achievement that is desirable

If I take your comments literally and not figuratively, you are avoiding all training of children because only teens and adults can possibly "train" or "be trained". Danger, Will Robinson... danger!

You can train your kids or let them train you. They do not get to whine and moan and say "I'm too precious to eat a hot dog tonight. I'm the prince, and I get to eat filet mignon tonight."

Think for a while about a bad parent and see that there are other methods of abuse and neglect that are being ignored on this thread to focus on spanking and the Pearls' zeal.
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21-11-2013, 08:44 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 07:46 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 04:33 PM)Adrianime Wrote:  None of this, "Daddy beats you cuz he loves you" crap. I hope I just read that previous post wrong..

I wrote a whole another thread about this phenomenon. It is tied to the entire mentality that god punishes us because he loves us. He wants what's best for us, it's all a part of us plan. We must be the problem. I'm not surprised at all that PJ would have that mentality and the cycle of abuse continued with his kids

Yes, the Bible speaks of punishment. It also speaks of chastisement, correction, repentance, learning and growth.

When something happens to me because I've sinned, I'm not incarcerated or executed. I'm chastised and/or reproved by God. It's called learning. Big diff.

Take it this way for an analogy if you will--is an F on a test a punishment? Of course not, it's meant to instruct the student to repent and rededicate their efforts.

In an ideal world, we'd have no punishment for criminals, only rehabilitation, right?
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21-11-2013, 08:48 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 08:13 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The finger flick does follow the "rules". It was not designed to cause pain, only stimulus.

You are jumping ahead, though. I'm not ready to talk more about other methods until I get some critical, honest feedback about the VCR training.

PS. A little teaser, though, my wife breastfed our babies and was happy to know how to stop them from biting her nipples!

Pulling a baby's hair while he/she is nursing is horrible. It makes me sick to think about it.

The Pearls' book is full of shit and anyone advocates it is full of shit too. My children are kind and gentle, and I like to believe it is because I am kind and gentle to them. To avoid crisis while shopping; I let them help me shop. I get complimented all the time on how well behaved my children are. It is possible to raise (not train like a freakin mule) a child to be well behaved and respectful without hurting them or scaring them into submission.
Also, why on earth would you flick a baby when you could just move the VCR?

It's delightful to hear that your kindness and gentleness reflect in your children. Kindness and gentleness are two fruits of the Holy Spirit of the list of nine. That's awesome.

How would you advise a parent who is not like you on living harmoniously with their children? Do you understand parents who are not as good-natured as you have had their families helped greatly by disciplining their unruly children--discipline in love? Unruly because they reflected their own internal struggles?

King David is an anti-example of you. The Bible records he neither admonished/reproved nor spanked his children. One raped another, one started a civil war and a third turned from God and nearly destroyed the nation.
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