To train up a child
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21-11-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 08:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:25 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2. There are consequences for choosing to follow your plan rather than God's. Just saying.


Boy, are you ever an arrogant fuckwit. You admit to abusing your children and turn around and pander your idiotic superstitions at others as if you were some authority on parenting. You take the fucking cake.

Taqiyya:

1. Not superstition--case studies. I did these kinds of things for 18 years. They work.

2. You seem very upset. What's wrong?
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21-11-2013, 08:55 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 01:00 AM)PatThePoltergeist Wrote:  Ok, I have got to get in on this one.

I was raised by my mother / step-father. Both are Christians. Both are fundamentalists. Church was three days a week, for three hours a session, with biblical conversations and references in between. I knew more bible by my early teens than many of the adults in the church.

I am now an atheist. I have made a complete turnaround in my religious beliefs. I am not, however, a Christian hater. I continue to have many religious friends and coworkers. And, I still occasionally go to church with my parents when I visit.

So, I am going to view this as openly as I can. Religious belief aside for a moment.

I was spanked as a child. I was never struck hard enough to leave a mark, but a certain amount of pain was involved. I was also brought up to be absolutely submissive to my parents. If they told me to do something, it was to be done. "Because I told you so" was a common phrase. Teaching respect for authority was the reason I have heard them give when coaching other parents on these subjects.

Now, as an adult, I have the freedom and will to do as I please. I have, on occasion, told my parents "no" as an adult. I am a free thinker and cognitively functional. In short, I am normal.

I do not feel that I was abused. Nor do I think less of my parents for correcting me this way. However, the lessons that I remember and hold dear, do not involve any physical action. I can recall, in total detail, many lessons administered by discussing the issue and forming a logical response. (including a fit punishment, such as correcting my mistake or doing extra chores to "pay for the damages")

I do not recall a single incident where being spanked changed my view of the world. It changed my actions. But, my understanding of the reason was that "If I do this, then I will be smacked" not "This is wrong because..."

There have been a few cases where real danger was involved. Walking into traffic as you mentioned was one such case. In every instance, my parent yelled "STOP!", and I knew by the tone of their voice that danger was near. No fear, no pain, no subconscious training. I simply knew. There is more to verbal communication than words alone can express.

Now, as the correcting of a toddler is concerned, I don't have much issue with your approach. Toddlers (particularly when speech not developed) respond much like dogs. I agree with you on that. But, this is a very fine line. Positive and negative stimuli are fine if used in conjunction. Pain is never ok with a small child. Flicking or patting the child's hand is not a painful action unless it is done with force. (flick your own hand folks) But, keep in mind the positive side of this equation. It seems we are debating strictly the punishment. Lets back up and look at the bigger picture. Painless negative is ok, so long as it is balanced with positive. (I'm not saying our Christian friend here is guilty of denying positive reinforcement. Just as a general rule.)

On to school age. For most of my youth, I was afraid to do any new things. My parents would always respond to the negative actions. (This is understandable. See problem = fix problem) My father told me once that the reason he didn't praise me was that praise shouldn't be needed to do the right thing. He was technically correct. But, we are not discussing a functional adult here. Children are learning. They don't necessarily understand why things are good or bad. If there is no praise, no positive reinforcement, then they will develop a negative view of the world regardless of the method used. As I did. (I am not saying you are guilty of this sir. I have not seen any evidence to suggest it. Simply stating truth here.)

Another problem was with the absolute submission idea. Doing what you are told simply because it was told is not the best way to live your life. I made several big mistakes in early adulthood because I could not bring myself to go against my parents wishes. I am still recovering from some of them. It was separation at college that finally broke that bond. I still to this day cringe when my father gives me advice that I don't agree with. I cant carry a reasonable debate with him because I still feel this guilty grinding feeling at the idea of stating my own opinions. Even after all this time. Is that a reasonable response? Not open rebellion. I am talking about simply not having the ability to engage in a discussion.

This is the main problem I see with the approaches in the book. No matter how much you water them down. No matter how gentle you are. They are still designed and intended to be a control device. They are not teaching. They are training. There is an important difference there.

Infliction of pain to the degree that I was exposed to was not itself traumatic. I have hurt myself far worse being stupid than my parents ever did with a belt. As I said above, I don't remember the spankings. I know that they happened, I know that they were unpleasant, but I can not recall the cause nor do I feel they were particularly harmful. The extremism seen in the book and the reports of what parents have done are absolutely criminal. I do not condone pain (hunger is pain too) as a good tool. But, I don't think that simply smacking a child constitutes abuse either. Especially If it is only to the degree of the finger flicking thing. The balance of teaching vs the force of training is the real battle here IMO.

I 100% appreciate your candor and your remarks both! Just a couple of nits if I may?

*Never with a belt or belt buckle. Never. Ever.

*Never spank without elaborating real reasons, gaining the child's understanding, and reformatting ideas and behavior in an appropriate manner. Never. Never. Ever. The Bible says "The rod AND reproof give wisdom." Spanking without reasons other than "I'm bigger than you and run the house" is being a tyrant. Giving a child endless, exasperating, frustrating lectures without spanking is nearly as bad IMO.

*Submission is really for adults as well. Does my wife submit to me? Sometimes. Wink I have to submit to Jesus, my employers, God, my church elders, the government, etc. Submission is more caught than taught. And I hate blind submission personally. My children were always taught why.

Simple example: "Do you know why mommy needs you to stop when she tells you?"

"I know, dad, I know. So we don't get hit by cars when we're crossing the street with you."
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21-11-2013, 09:01 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 03:28 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 02:54 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You do know that some normal parents spank their kids, and that spanking makes kids cry (sometimes)? Spanking can be instructive or abusive. So can Bible study. So can visiting TTA. So can most anything. Context, my brother, context.

And this Tongue makes me uncertain--did you really like my VCR training?

Yahweh thought some infants and children deserved death:

“All those who are found will be stabbed, all those captured will fall by the sword, their babies dashed to pieces before their eyes, their houses plundered, their wives raped. Look, against them I am stirring up the Medes who care nothing for silver, who set no value by gold. Bows will annihilate the young men, they will have no pity for the fruit of the womb, or mercy in their eyes for children” (Isa. 13:15–18, NJB.)

“Ephraim is blasted, their root has dried out, they will bear no more fruit. And even if they do bear children I shall slaughter the darlings of their womb” (Hosea 9:16, NJB.)

“A blessing on anyone who seizes your babies and shatters them against rock” (Ps. 137:9, NJB.)

Even the unborn weren’t safe:

“Samaria will pay the penalty for having rebelled against her God. They will fall by the sword, their little children will be dashed to pieces and their pregnant women disemboweled” (Hosea 14:1, NJB.)

God ordered the killing of boys, and women who weren’t virgins:

“Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him” (Num. 31:17, NJB.)

PJ, you write "Context, my brother, context."
I want to know... in what context is it okay to
-smash babies onto rocks,
-slaughter children,
-dash children to pieces,
-disembowel pregnant women,
-and kill little boys?

Mark,

This is new for you. Are you actually saying that Yahweh and not people wrote the scriptures?!

If we instead believe in ammuenses, that people wrote of their own free will, thoughts, and heart desires, and Jesus knew they would write just what was needed--then instead of having a deceitful, lying Bible, we have an honest one--for example the famous "Happy are those who dash YOUR babies against the rocks" not only implied that someone who wasn't the writer or the Israelites would do the deed, maybe, someday--but that the writers were being honestly frustrated because the oppressors had dashed THEIR babies against the rocks.

Be real, Mark, please stop merely posting snippets of scripture but think the issues through and be real. If someone murdered your children, your first primal impulse would be to kill them--I'd say that's not a sinful thought but an honest and natural thought--but our higher nature is to restrain that impulse and with good reason--vengeance is the Lord's and not ours.

Discretion is knowing one's one emotions and then not acting on them. Be discreet likewise, and try to come up with something original based on your high intelligence and not canards. How many times have I had the babies/rocks verse thrown in my face? Many times.

How many times have atheists told me instead, "The Bible makes no sense because I've tried to love my neighbor as I love my own self and I do so some, but it's actually impossible to do so consistently and always..."?

NEVER.

Mark, we're speaking about raising children here. Not killing other people's children. Try to stay on topic, too!
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21-11-2013, 09:06 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 07:12 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 03:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And therefore my disclaimers! I spanked my children, I never beat them. Most normal Christians are not the Pearls, it's very, very hard to spank our kids. We don't want to do it...

But no, kids should be forced to behave in certain ways because they are not adults. If you've ever said, "not in my home, kid" you've demanded obedience to a certain standard or behavior.

Kids should be forced to pay attention in school unless they need to have a problem addressed differently like Autism or severe ADHD.

Kids should be forced to flush the toilet, brush their teeth, and frankly, read their Bibles... Smile

I don't get this. You say beating your kids (spanking beating it's the same damn thing, especially by the Pearls' definition if spanking. Also where do you get off saying 'normal' parents spank their kids? I call BS on that) is so effective, yet you have to force them to brush their teeth and flush the toilet? I have never had to force my children to flush the toilet. -_-
The bible is rated R and not to be read by children, if you insist on teaching them nonsense please at least use a children's bible. Be responsible. And stop handing out that book when you obviously do not agree with it. BE RESPONSIBLE!!

I've BEEN responsible. Past tense. I've spanked for 18 years and now my kids are (not) paying the price.

I didn't write FORCE them to brush their teeth, did I...? I wrote MAKE them brush their teeth as in a verbal command.

You can command your kids if you are a certain way. Or you can make suggestions. But if you only make suggestions and not commands to your children, you may get more free will from them then you believe exists!

Let's start with a basic--and any atheist or Christian can respond, not just you, please:

Should you suggest your kids not stick their fingers in electric sockets? Or should you command them not to do so? A simple S or C would be great--please spare me the pain of reading your "Hey, Johnny, maybe what you're about to do is not a wise idea... what do you mean, Dad?" discussion you've had with the kids.

I'm saying when the finger is almost there when your back was turned for a moment, do you shout "Stop! Don't!" Why or why not?
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21-11-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: To train up a child
You are wrong that dogs don't - to use your term - sin. They are predators, capable of violence beyond necessary for self protection. You are deluding yourself otherwise.

There are dogs that suffer neurological imbalances that can cause them to lash out, even the most well cared for, exercised, loved and highly trained animal.

A pit bull is breed to take down large bulls. I have personally witnessed a pit bull attack on a person that was completely and utterly unprovoked. This dog was highly trained, exercised, and well cared for. The results of this attack were devastating. The victim lost the use of an appendage and almost their life from the blood loss.

I worked with this k-9 and I can tell you there was zero signs of aggression. Much like humans in this regard....some of us have an urge or drive for violence that cannot be controlled. Dennis rader showed no signs of any violence from his family. They had no idea what he was capable of.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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21-11-2013, 09:30 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 09:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 07:12 AM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  I don't get this. You say beating your kids (spanking beating it's the same damn thing, especially by the Pearls' definition if spanking. Also where do you get off saying 'normal' parents spank their kids? I call BS on that) is so effective, yet you have to force them to brush their teeth and flush the toilet? I have never had to force my children to flush the toilet. -_-
The bible is rated R and not to be read by children, if you insist on teaching them nonsense please at least use a children's bible. Be responsible. And stop handing out that book when you obviously do not agree with it. BE RESPONSIBLE!!

I've BEEN responsible. Past tense. I've spanked for 18 years and now my kids are (not) paying the price.

I didn't write FORCE them to brush their teeth, did I...? I wrote MAKE them brush their teeth as in a verbal command.

You can command your kids if you are a certain way. Or you can make suggestions. But if you only make suggestions and not commands to your children, you may get more free will from them then you believe exists!

Let's start with a basic--and any atheist or Christian can respond, not just you, please:

Should you suggest your kids not stick their fingers in electric sockets? Or should you command them not to do so? A simple S or C would be great--please spare me the pain of reading your "Hey, Johnny, maybe what you're about to do is not a wise idea... what do you mean, Dad?" discussion you've had with the kids.

I'm saying when the finger is almost there when your back was turned for a moment, do you shout "Stop! Don't!" Why or why not?

Just stop. This isn't about what you did with your children.
This is about you recommending a torture guide to people.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-11-2013, 09:40 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 09:24 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You are wrong that dogs don't - to use your term - sin. They are predators, capable of violence beyond necessary for self protection. You are deluding yourself otherwise.

There are dogs that suffer neurological imbalances that can cause them to lash out, even the most well cared for, exercised, loved and highly trained animal.

A pit bull is breed to take down large bulls. I have personally witnessed a pit bull attack on a person that was completely and utterly unprovoked. This dog was highly trained, exercised, and well cared for. The results of this attack were devastating. The victim lost the use of an appendage and almost their life from the blood loss.

I worked with this k-9 and I can tell you there was zero signs of aggression. Much like humans in this regard....some of us have an urge or drive for violence that cannot be controlled. Dennis rader showed no signs of any violence from his family. They had no idea what he was capable of.

You believe that a sin is a real thing, then? Is that what you're saying? That dogs and humans commit sins?
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21-11-2013, 09:41 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 09:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 09:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've BEEN responsible. Past tense. I've spanked for 18 years and now my kids are (not) paying the price.

I didn't write FORCE them to brush their teeth, did I...? I wrote MAKE them brush their teeth as in a verbal command.

You can command your kids if you are a certain way. Or you can make suggestions. But if you only make suggestions and not commands to your children, you may get more free will from them then you believe exists!

Let's start with a basic--and any atheist or Christian can respond, not just you, please:

Should you suggest your kids not stick their fingers in electric sockets? Or should you command them not to do so? A simple S or C would be great--please spare me the pain of reading your "Hey, Johnny, maybe what you're about to do is not a wise idea... what do you mean, Dad?" discussion you've had with the kids.

I'm saying when the finger is almost there when your back was turned for a moment, do you shout "Stop! Don't!" Why or why not?

Just stop. This isn't about what you did with your children.
This is about you recommending a torture guide to people.

No, reading books by Dawkins--now that's torture.
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21-11-2013, 09:42 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 09:40 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 09:24 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  You are wrong that dogs don't - to use your term - sin. They are predators, capable of violence beyond necessary for self protection. You are deluding yourself otherwise.

There are dogs that suffer neurological imbalances that can cause them to lash out, even the most well cared for, exercised, loved and highly trained animal.

A pit bull is breed to take down large bulls. I have personally witnessed a pit bull attack on a person that was completely and utterly unprovoked. This dog was highly trained, exercised, and well cared for. The results of this attack were devastating. The victim lost the use of an appendage and almost their life from the blood loss.

I worked with this k-9 and I can tell you there was zero signs of aggression. Much like humans in this regard....some of us have an urge or drive for violence that cannot be controlled. Dennis rader showed no signs of any violence from his family. They had no idea what he was capable of.

You believe that a sin is a real thing, then? Is that what you're saying? That dogs and humans commit sins?

How is a brain malfunction a sin? Isn't a sin supposed to be something somehow wrong that someone does on purpose?

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21-11-2013, 09:56 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 09:41 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  No, reading books by Dawkins--now that's torture.

For those who lack the cranial capacity, yes Drinking Beverage

I have no doubt that you intentionally posted this to get this reaction. Troll.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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