To train up a child
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-11-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 03:13 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 03:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  What kind of behavior do you expect, and when you do not receive what is deserved/expected, do you yell? curse? spank in anger? spank without anger? send to time out?
I attempt to treat my children with respect as if they are real people.
My goal as a parent is to teach them life skills.

Children often mimic the behaviour of their parents (and friends).
If my kids shout, it's because I shout, if they hit, it's because I hit.

However, if they negotiate, it's because I negotiate, if they reason, it's because I reason, if they are respectful, it's because I am respectful.

PJ, there is more than one way to skin a cat, you don't have to use violence in order to influence your children's behaviour. Just remember, you are older, wiser and smarter than your kids, the challenge is to lead and influence them in the direction you desire (surely you can find a way that doesn't involve violence or threats)

S:

Let's pin that down a bit more between us. I agree that what you give, they give. You said if you're respectful, they are. If you're angry, they aren't.

Two issues:

1) Trained kids (spanked biblically and educated) give good fruit, so there was good input. I can't say "They're afraid of abuse!" because they are adults now and free. I must have been inputting goodness to get so much goodness back since we agree on gold in gold out garbage in garbage out.

2) You never raise your voice to your kids? You never lose your cool? Spanking can help you from doing either negative behavior...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2013, 03:57 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 03:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Have you never given a book with a disclaimer? Do you only give books to others or recommend books you believe are 100%, not 99%, spot on?
If you had a book called "50 Ways to Beat Your Spouse Into Submission", would you recommend it to others with a disclaimer such as "I don't agree with a few of the more extreme methods, but the rest are all effective"? Consider

99%, huh...? Dodgy

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
21-11-2013, 04:20 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 03:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Let's pin that down a bit more between us. I agree that what you give, they give. You said if you're respectful, they are. If you're angry, they aren't.

Two issues:

1) Trained kids (spanked biblically and educated) give good fruit, so there was good input. I can't say "They're afraid of abuse!" because they are adults now and free. I must have been inputting goodness to get so much goodness back since we agree on gold in gold out garbage in garbage out.

2) You never raise your voice to your kids? You never lose your cool? Spanking can help you from doing either negative behavior...

We obviously come from very different worldviews.
You have belief and faith, which means (I think) that you go with what you are told and expect the outcome to be positive, even if you don't understand the merits of the strategy. I am not sure how you justify accountability, whether you would hold yourself accountable for following this book, or if you would blame the authors for misrepresenting your god's view on bringing up children?

I don't have belief or faith, which means I need to assess and reason different methods, I then am accountable for the choices I make in bringing up my kids.

So, with this in mind
1) Trained kids (spanked biblically and educated) give good fruit
How do you assess "good" fruit?
There is a USA report showing that atheists are vastly under represented in prisons whereas Christians are much more likely to end up there.

2) Sure, I raise my voice sometimes, but I don't think I need to be spanked.
Rather than raising my voice or using violence against my children I find it much more effective to get down to their level and talk to them. If they are throwing a tanty then I wait it out before having a respectful conversation with them. Violent behaviour is not required, I don't need to teach them to solve issues with use of violence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2013, 07:42 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 09:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've BEEN responsible. Past tense. I've spanked for 18 years and now my kids are (not) paying the price.

How can you possibly think it is responsible to give out a book that you know advocates abuse?

Quote:You can command your kids if you are a certain way. Or you can make suggestions. But if you only make suggestions and not commands to your children, you may get more free will from them then you believe exists!
I do not not expect absolute obedience from my children, but yes I do expect obedience to some extent. I have taught my children through POSITIVE reinforcement and praising. My children are very well behaved.

Quote:Should you suggest your kids not stick their fingers in electric sockets? Or should you command them not to do so? A simple S or C would be great--please spare me the pain of reading your "Hey, Johnny, maybe what you're about to do is not a wise idea... what do you mean, Dad?" discussion you've had with the kids.

I'm saying when the finger is almost there when your back was turned for a moment, do you shout "Stop! Don't!" Why or why not?

Although I have never been in this situation, (the thinking parents use this modern invention that plugs the outlet to keep children safe, the thinking parent only allows tiny children to play in childproof supervised areas) I think I would go for a demand of STOP in a situation like this. I would not follow it up with hurting my child. There is the difference.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Losty's post
21-11-2013, 07:46 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 03:05 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 02:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  Then why in God's name would you recommend or give this torture manual to anyone?

Have you never given a book with a disclaimer? Do you only give books to others or recommend books you believe are 100%, not 99%, spot on?

The book usually comes with an invitation to group parenting classes.

I don't give out abuse manuals, you fucking moron.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Chas's post
21-11-2013, 08:20 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 08:30 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 06:50 PM)The_Thinking_Theist Wrote:  Six other kids have been killed by ignorant parents reading this book.

Ignorant being the operative word here.

Yes, and anyone who does ANYTHING those fuckwits suggest is ignorant as fuck.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Taqiyya Mockingbird's post
21-11-2013, 08:21 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 08:35 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 06:54 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  Um no. Not at all. Children in various stages of development have meltdowns. It is the fault of the parents by taking an overstimulated child to that environment. You seem to think that normal children's behavior should be something to be ashamed of. I bet you also hit your kids for playing doctor with other kids too. Any hand to genital or genital to genital contact is wrong, right? ( Even though this is normal child development and has NOTHING to do with sex but with a natural curiousity of their genitals.)

I am a well rounded, college educated, compassionate person. I grew up with god loving parents so you can't tell me that my behavior at age two was because of my "heathen" parents. I had meltdowns in the store. I did not "turn into a bratty adult. Period." And I take issue with you applying those blanket statements - you know - the ones you hate.

I admonish and scorn your wife for hurting your newborn baby just because of a little bit to the nipple. She pushed a baby out of her vagina, she can't handle a little biting? What a horrible, weak person she is. Surely the desire to bond with her child would override the discomfort of being nibbled on.

I train dogs for a search and rescue K-9 unit that I run. Search and rescue for live persons and HRD (human remains detection). I've been doing it for 10 years. You do NOT know more about dog training than I do. Training dogs to sit, speak, come, stay, or even a parlor trick or two is child's play compared to what I do. I train a dog to range ahead a specific distance from me for human scent, and upon finding a victim, will run back and alert me, then refind the victim. He is also trained to find a single drop of blood with a whole other set of alerts and refinds since it's often a crime scene we are discovering. This amount of training is leaps and bounds above any "roll over" or "get the newspaper" tricks. I also have trained service dogs for Warrior Canine Connection. It's also worth noting that my K-9 unit is 100% volunteer. I do it because I want to help my community in times of need and dog training is a tangible skill set I have. Rather than just "praying" for people affected by tornados or collapsed buildings or simply going for a walk and never coming home, I strap on my boots and get off my ass to help...which doesn't seem to mesh well with your idea that atheists are these terrible, moral less, rutterless sinners. But I digress...

Successful dog training only occurs with POSITIVE reinforcement. You should NEVER hit a dog because you have no idea what you are doing when you hit. A dog doesn't have a train of thought where they can reflect on multiple actions. For example, Here is a scenario. You see fido digging up the flower bed. You yell "NO!!" And call him over to you. Then you hit him. Now, what you have done is just punish the last thing they did, which is come to you. He doesn't understand that you are punishing him for digging up the garden bed. Even if you show him by pointing to it and saying "no". He has no idea why you are saying no and that's why he will continue to do it.

The only way physical punishment works is if it happens during the action. For example,
Snake proofing is something I must do for their safety. It's the ONLY time negative punishment is issued. The dogs wears a shock collar. A rattlesnake in a cage is introduced (or whatever is indigenous to the area, for me, it's timber rattlers). The dog is set loose and no one interferes until he discovers the snake on his own. If I were to lead him to the snake, then deliver the correction, I am only correcting the fact that he followed me somewhere.

So the dog must discover the snake on his own. When he approaches the cage and sniffs, THEN and only then does he get the shock.

Don't hit your dog. By hitting your dog you demonstrate that the only arrow in your quiver is a wet noodle. Surely you can think of better ways of outsmarting your dog than simply hitting him.

I appreciate your work in a helping profession, and I think we're in near total agreement:

1) You never hit a dog. Not ever. My own mom and stepdad have willed most of their money to the ASPCA and similar. I understand. I think dog abusers should be shot.


And yet you admit that you abuse your children. In other words you treat them worse than you would treat a dog. Check.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2013, 08:24 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 08:49 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(20-11-2013 08:27 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Boy, are you ever an arrogant fuckwit. You admit to abusing your children and turn around and pander your idiotic superstitions at others as if you were some authority on parenting. You take the fucking cake.

Taqiyya:

1. Not superstition--case studies. I did these kinds of things for 18 years. They work.

Superstitions. Leave the red herring in the trash.

Quote:2. You seem very upset. What's wrong?

Oh, you're going to play the "angry atheist" bullshit card? Piss off. You admit you abuse your children. That's fucked up.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2013, 08:28 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 10:45 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Certainly, I'm grieved to learn that six children have died. Certainly, I give the book out but not to psychos (as far as I know)!

PJ the Queen of Denial.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
21-11-2013, 08:31 PM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 01:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 11:33 AM)Chas Wrote:  Another dishonest attempt at deflection? Seriously, PJ, your efforts are transparent.

Answer the question. Why do you continue to hand out a torture manual?

Isn't that a loaded question? It's a moot question. It's not a torture manual, it's a guidebook for training children using all-but-forgotten-in-the-modern-era biblical principles.

Yes, "biblical" principles like killing your children for disobedience. Rolleyes

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: