To train up a child
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21-11-2013, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 21-11-2013 11:32 PM by sporehux.)
RE: To train up a child
This is from the Current Pearl Fundie website:

Contrary to the perception produced by the media, you do have a right to spank your children in all 50 states. In Tennessee, Child Protection Services says it is not abuse unless marks remain on the child 24 hours after the fact. You can read the laws for your state online.

I wonder why they have removed all the other great advice:

"The Pearls' advice from their previous Web site: A swift whack with the plastic tubing would sting but not bruise. Give 10 licks at a time, more if the child resists. Be careful about using it in front of others -- even at church; nosy neighbors might call social workers. Save hands for nurturing, not disciplining. Heed the warning, taken from Proverbs in the Old Testament, that sparing the rod will spoil the child.

The word of the day is "Deception"
So Kids, what does corporal punishment and theism have in common: "Deception" ,
Bonus point for Prefixing, "Self-deception" those who condone corporal punishment.

Wiki link was for PJ, Its evident he has no concept of the word.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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21-11-2013, 11:36 PM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2013 12:01 AM by Dark Light.)
RE: To train up a child
I know most people here will disagree with me, but this is the type of case where if I were a dictator the parents would be sentenced to death by torture. Pieces of shit disguised as humans deserve to suffer the same, if not worse treatment they inflicted on defenseless children. If PJ agrees with, and uses the same methods I believe he/she deserves the same treatment he/she inflicted.

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22-11-2013, 12:54 AM (This post was last modified: 22-11-2013 01:11 AM by evenheathen.)
RE: To train up a child
PleaseJesus. Did you watch the video? Do you see the arrogance and excitement for abuse? The light in his eyes in describing the beatings?

I am not going to ridicule you. I have "faith" that you are not the monster in that video. I was spanked as a child and suffer no lasting effects (that I can tell), however I did have gracious, thinking, loving parents, in spite of their hard, old school religious upbringing.

I would implore you to stop giving out this book. I would beg you to write your own damn book on parenting before endorsing this shit. Children have died because of it. Because people are not self aware enough to think for themselves when it comes to life, and the life that is entrusted to them. A lot of people are sheep. They will follow an authoritative voice to destruction if they are promised heaven.

This shit needs to stop, you need to stop endorsing it, in any measure. Now.

Please, for the sake of the next innocent child who would die because of the ignorance printed in the pages of this book, stop.

Your defense of this book reminds me of a conversation at work with a customer a while ago. I''m going to paraphrase but the gist is accurate. The conversation was on homosexuality. He said, "I have my own ideas on whether or not it's wrong, but if I'm going to be a man of god, and believe that what the bible says is true, than I have to support the bigotry of the bible."

Paraphrased, but that's what he said. Cognitive dissonance defined in a real world example of the fear of people to stand up for what they know to be true.

You are exemplifying this in every post you make. Please think about this.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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22-11-2013, 01:51 AM
RE: To train up a child
A challenge for you PJ (and any other CP lurkers out there)

As Much as my Kids hate me for it, They have 15 minutes to decide their own punishment and explain why its appropriate for the crime they committed.
If I believe they understand the crime and are close to a reasonable punishment for it (spanking is not an option), then the problem is over (i just need to apply the punishment).
If not they get a long explanation of what they did and why it deserves a certain punishment level (more severe than what they choose).
I've found this encourages them to unintentionally think through the consequences of what they did and why it was wrong, least they have me lecture it to them.

Most times they come up with things I had not considered and not just what I have mentioned previously.

To summarize the actual punishment can be quite pathetic, grounded for an afternoon,house cleaning, car washing, no internet for x hours, most severe is EMP (no electronics) I will be arrested for child abuse one day for this. Its getting them to understand what they did was wrong so they can build a moral compass on not repeating it.

JUST TRY IT FOR A MONTH, let your kids rationalize to you why what they did was deserving of punishment, it helps them understand and have empathy for your situation (the parents).
do you really want your kids subconscious to despise you ?


Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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22-11-2013, 02:34 AM
RE: To train up a child
It's very difficult to assess the abusiveness or not of a person's parenting on a message board. PJ, when you say that you take on biblical parenting strategies and follow the pearls' advice I suspect and hope that is your confirmation bias speaking. You see these sources through the lens of your own style, primarily a secular style. You unconsciously ignore or soften the worst advice and you take away core messages that match your existing biases... even if this amounts to little more than: Parenting matters, I matter to my kids and my kids matter to me.

To me the core principle in (immoral atheist) discipline is for a child to comply with a standard of conduct they have bought into. I spend as more time with my children working with them on questions of what behaviour is acceptable and why than I do in compliance to acceptable standards. I think this is the core of any good discipline strategy.

So, do you think the bible agrees with me on this or disagrees? Feel free to quote me chapter and verse.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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22-11-2013, 07:23 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 11:17 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 11:06 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Start the horses mouth at 1:20

Don't know if this was posted before, but this is who PJ is endorsing.

Admittedly it seems cobbled for out of context impact, but nether the less its beyond disturbing.

I have the sudden urge to light his beard on fire... Evil_monster

I feel sick. Seriously sick. I'm watching this and can't help but to notice the joy he gets out of it! He even started talking about sex after a few questions, when it wasn't even related. "My husband doesn't discipline, and when he does it's out of anger." The answer: "have sex with your husband. Let him blow off his steam"

How is sex even related to punishment in that question?

Michel pearl is clearly into S&M. The smile on hi face as he whipped a doll makes me want to put him in a gimp outfit and beat the shit out of him....then you can light his beard on fire.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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22-11-2013, 08:24 AM
RE: To train up a child
And i thought it was us athiests that have no moral compass as to what is right or wrong. I certainly hope PJ is taking his stance just for effect to get as big of a rise out of the audience. If not, then he must be a twisted and malicious bastard.

I wonder if he was throttled with a hose as a child.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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22-11-2013, 08:54 AM
RE: To train up a child
As much as Atheist like to claim they are individuals, we all seem to follow a do no harm philosophy, the evil sinners we are.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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22-11-2013, 09:37 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 03:55 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Let's pin that down a bit more between us. I agree that what you give, they give. You said if you're respectful, they are. If you're angry, they aren't.

Two issues:

1) Trained kids (spanked biblically and educated) give good fruit, so there was good input. I can't say "They're afraid of abuse!" because they are adults now and free. I must have been inputting goodness to get so much goodness back since we agree on gold in gold out garbage in garbage out.

2) You never raise your voice to your kids? You never lose your cool? Spanking can help you from doing either negative behavior...

We obviously come from very different worldviews.
You have belief and faith, which means (I think) that you go with what you are told and expect the outcome to be positive, even if you don't understand the merits of the strategy. I am not sure how you justify accountability, whether you would hold yourself accountable for following this book, or if you would blame the authors for misrepresenting your god's view on bringing up children?

I don't have belief or faith, which means I need to assess and reason different methods, I then am accountable for the choices I make in bringing up my kids.

So, with this in mind
1) Trained kids (spanked biblically and educated) give good fruit
How do you assess "good" fruit?
There is a USA report showing that atheists are vastly under represented in prisons whereas Christians are much more likely to end up there.

2) Sure, I raise my voice sometimes, but I don't think I need to be spanked.
Rather than raising my voice or using violence against my children I find it much more effective to get down to their level and talk to them. If they are throwing a tanty then I wait it out before having a respectful conversation with them. Violent behaviour is not required, I don't need to teach them to solve issues with use of violence.

What do you mean by "wait it out"? If you're attending a wedding and the child is screaming and throwing a fit, do you go outside with the child to wait it out for 20 minutes and miss the ceremony?
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22-11-2013, 09:39 AM
RE: To train up a child
(21-11-2013 07:42 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 09:06 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I've BEEN responsible. Past tense. I've spanked for 18 years and now my kids are (not) paying the price.

How can you possibly think it is responsible to give out a book that you know advocates abuse?

Quote:You can command your kids if you are a certain way. Or you can make suggestions. But if you only make suggestions and not commands to your children, you may get more free will from them then you believe exists!
I do not not expect absolute obedience from my children, but yes I do expect obedience to some extent. I have taught my children through POSITIVE reinforcement and praising. My children are very well behaved.

Quote:Should you suggest your kids not stick their fingers in electric sockets? Or should you command them not to do so? A simple S or C would be great--please spare me the pain of reading your "Hey, Johnny, maybe what you're about to do is not a wise idea... what do you mean, Dad?" discussion you've had with the kids.

I'm saying when the finger is almost there when your back was turned for a moment, do you shout "Stop! Don't!" Why or why not?

Although I have never been in this situation, (the thinking parents use this modern invention that plugs the outlet to keep children safe, the thinking parent only allows tiny children to play in childproof supervised areas) I think I would go for a demand of STOP in a situation like this. I would not follow it up with hurting my child. There is the difference.

A child may be spanked and feel hurt--but this hurt does not lead to longterm trauma... it actually leads to trust in the parents and a longterm pattern of improved behavior. The Bible indicates that not dealing with the child's rebellious nature has implications for them as a child... and as an adult.
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