To train up a child
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22-11-2013, 10:00 AM
RE: To train up a child
My son is an amalgamation of my stubbornness and Jess' headstrongness.

There is no punishment that works for him except spanking. We've tried it all... talking... reasoning... time out... taking away everything the boy owns... all of it is as effective and trying to kill an elephant with a BB gun.

Spanking resonates with him... so much so that I barely have to spank him anymore. All I have to do is threaten with it, and he usually straightens up. And I never spank without explaining to him why he's being spanked.

However, I would NEVER use a pipe on him. We use a plastic spoon. And, leaving him out in the cold... denying meals... spraying him with a hose... never... I could never do that. That's not punishment. That's cruelty and abuse.

PJ, you seem like a person who has a pretty good understanding of this world and Christianity. You're okay in my book.

But, dude... how can you advocate this type of "discipline"? I find it indefensible.

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22-11-2013, 10:06 AM
RE: To train up a child
PJ, you just don't have any awareness of what you are saying and the audience you are saying it to.

Worthless appeals like "the bible says" and "god made" as you well know have no authority or merit here (no matter how strongly you believe they are true) yet you continue to use them. Why do you continue to go to this worthless well of support with your posts here? Are you that fucking stupid?

I feel great sorrow for your children, the children in your "born again" community and any others that are impacted by the Pearl's abusive parenting advice.
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22-11-2013, 10:25 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 09:37 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  We obviously come from very different worldviews.
You have belief and faith, which means (I think) that you go with what you are told and expect the outcome to be positive, even if you don't understand the merits of the strategy. I am not sure how you justify accountability, whether you would hold yourself accountable for following this book, or if you would blame the authors for misrepresenting your god's view on bringing up children?

I don't have belief or faith, which means I need to assess and reason different methods, I then am accountable for the choices I make in bringing up my kids.

So, with this in mind
1) Trained kids (spanked biblically and educated) give good fruit
How do you assess "good" fruit?
There is a USA report showing that atheists are vastly under represented in prisons whereas Christians are much more likely to end up there.

2) Sure, I raise my voice sometimes, but I don't think I need to be spanked.
Rather than raising my voice or using violence against my children I find it much more effective to get down to their level and talk to them. If they are throwing a tanty then I wait it out before having a respectful conversation with them. Violent behaviour is not required, I don't need to teach them to solve issues with use of violence.

What do you mean by "wait it out"? If you're attending a wedding and the child is screaming and throwing a fit, do you go outside with the child to wait it out for 20 minutes and miss the ceremony?
Whatever you do, don't miss the ceremony... just start "switching" your child right there in front of everyone and completely disrupt it so everyone can also have the occasion ruined for them! Rolleyes

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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22-11-2013, 10:27 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 09:37 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 04:20 PM)Stevil Wrote:  We obviously come from very different worldviews.
You have belief and faith, which means (I think) that you go with what you are told and expect the outcome to be positive, even if you don't understand the merits of the strategy. I am not sure how you justify accountability, whether you would hold yourself accountable for following this book, or if you would blame the authors for misrepresenting your god's view on bringing up children?

I don't have belief or faith, which means I need to assess and reason different methods, I then am accountable for the choices I make in bringing up my kids.

So, with this in mind
1) Trained kids (spanked biblically and educated) give good fruit
How do you assess "good" fruit?
There is a USA report showing that atheists are vastly under represented in prisons whereas Christians are much more likely to end up there.

2) Sure, I raise my voice sometimes, but I don't think I need to be spanked.
Rather than raising my voice or using violence against my children I find it much more effective to get down to their level and talk to them. If they are throwing a tanty then I wait it out before having a respectful conversation with them. Violent behaviour is not required, I don't need to teach them to solve issues with use of violence.

What do you mean by "wait it out"? If you're attending a wedding and the child is screaming and throwing a fit, do you go outside with the child to wait it out for 20 minutes and miss the ceremony?

Yes, that's exactly what you do.

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22-11-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: To train up a child
I was spanked as a child, I was also beaten up by my step father, I was left to fend for myself after the age of 12, until I turned 16 when I was old enough to get a job.. I earned money that was taken from me.

Sounds bad eh? True story though.

When I misbehaved, I was given the slipper. Only needed to do it once or twice though. I threw a snooker ball at my step father, and threatened him (cos I was a big man eh?). Only did it once, learned a valuable lesson about controlling myself and how NOT to talk to people. I was left to fend for myself because I was trusted, they knew I could look after myself, they thought it would be better for me to have free reign and learn my own mistakes.. it was a bit too much, as I felt less important to them than I was. When I got a job they taught me the value of money, they took my wages and gave it and more back to me when i could justify what I was spending money on.

Someone once said, if you have to hit a child you have lost the argument. My answer was if you are in an argument with your child, you are not a fit parent. I argued all the time with my parents, I am sure all of us have done, they never argued with me, they TOLD me. In no uncertain terms.

There is very little I would say hitting a child was suitable for, the only things I see as valid reasons, is when it is a direct response ot the child acting in a way in which they were endangering themselves (running across a road, putting fingers in plug socket) It s a lesson that MUST be taught then and there with no discussion, just the explanation.. You do this again and you may die!.
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22-11-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 09:40 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 07:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't give out abuse manuals, you fucking moron.

The Pearls' book is not an abuse manual, and again, millions of born again parents use similar methods with their families.
So you don't mind if someone robs your house then, right?
Millions of people steal so it must be ok.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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22-11-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:54 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  PleaseJesus. Did you watch the video? Do you see the arrogance and excitement for abuse? The light in his eyes in describing the beatings?

I am not going to ridicule you. I have "faith" that you are not the monster in that video. I was spanked as a child and suffer no lasting effects (that I can tell), however I did have gracious, thinking, loving parents, in spite of their hard, old school religious upbringing.

I would implore you to stop giving out this book. I would beg you to write your own damn book on parenting before endorsing this shit. Children have died because of it. Because people are not self aware enough to think for themselves when it comes to life, and the life that is entrusted to them. A lot of people are sheep. They will follow an authoritative voice to destruction if they are promised heaven.

This shit needs to stop, you need to stop endorsing it, in any measure. Now.

Please, for the sake of the next innocent child who would die because of the ignorance printed in the pages of this book, stop.

Your defense of this book reminds me of a conversation at work with a customer a while ago. I''m going to paraphrase but the gist is accurate. The conversation was on homosexuality. He said, "I have my own ideas on whether or not it's wrong, but if I'm going to be a man of god, and believe that what the bible says is true, than I have to support the bigotry of the bible."

Paraphrased, but that's what he said. Cognitive dissonance defined in a real world example of the fear of people to stand up for what they know to be true.

You are exemplifying this in every post you make. Please think about this.

How could you see the "light in his eyes"? The video was edited so fast with snippets. I mean, not even half-sentences...

The only thing that shocked me about the video was that the kids apparently got 5 spanks for an infraction and 5 more for lying. We would do 15 and 15, 20 and 20 when they were much older. I hope that doesn't sound inflammatory...
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22-11-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 09:43 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Why not merely ask me what I don't endorse and then you'll have a fuller picture.

Is something keeping you from simply telling everyone? Is it because:

1. You need to be asked (again)?
2. You enjoy keeping this discussion heated?
3. You're trying to antagonize the more angry posters?
4. You like being called names and accused of child abuse, so you can be the victim?
5. Uber-troll?

Sheesh.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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22-11-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 09:54 AM)jaguar3030 Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 09:50 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Children are not to be beaten, they are to be spanked. God made the gluteus maximus region in part to be a soft cushion for a few spanks that make a child cry. Blood is not to be drawn--do you have any concept of how hard you have to hit a child with a 1/4 inch thick section of PVC plastic on their bottom to KILL them?

The gluteus maximus is used for hip mobility and stability, and for walking, running, and lifting.

Gawd made the ass muscle so you could hit it? What the fuck man.

Gosh, you don't get it. The butt is soft with lots of fat. You don't spank a child on their arm, their leg, their face, etc. If your parent hit you elsewhere they may have been abusive and violent.
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22-11-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 09:43 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 08:39 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Which means you endorse the following:

Some of the discipline techniques the Pearls teach include:

Using plastic tubing to beat children, since it is "too light to cause damage to the muscle or the bone”
Wearing the plastic tubing around the parent's neck as a constant reminder to obey
"Swatting" babies as young as six months old with instruments such as "a 12-inch willowy branch," thinner plastic tubing or a wooden spoon
"Blanket training" babies by hitting them with an instrument if they try to crawl off a blanket on the floor
Beating older children with rulers, paddles, belts and larger tree branches
"Training" children with pain before they even disobey, in order to teach total obedience
Giving cold water baths, putting children outside in cold weather and withholding meals as discipline
Hosing off children who have potty training accidents
Inflicting punishment until a child is "without breath to complain"

Taq:

Yes. I endorse most everything in the book. Why not merely ask me what I don't endorse and then you'll have a fuller picture. Also, you haven't given any context of a general sense of the book--only pull quotes from other sources--you haven't read the book.

Let's employ some logic here:

If is says to beat older children with a paddle, then why are younger children not beat with a paddle? Why would the item used to spank (I don't believe the book ever uses the word BEAT) be discarded for the older child?
Here's some logic for you:
If 99% of a book is acceptable and only the other 1% advocates child abuse, the whole book becomes a complete stinking pile of atrocious dog poop and should not be recommended to anyone. It shouldn't even reach publication, but if it does then it should be banned.

The quotes are enough for me not to have to read the rest of the book or listen to what specific parts you disagree with.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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