To train up a child
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22-11-2013, 10:32 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  My son is an amalgamation of my stubbornness and Jess' headstrongness.

There is no punishment that works for him except spanking. We've tried it all... talking... reasoning... time out... taking away everything the boy owns... all of it is as effective and trying to kill an elephant with a BB gun.

Spanking resonates with him... so much so that I barely have to spank him anymore. All I have to do is threaten with it, and he usually straightens up. And I never spank without explaining to him why he's being spanked.

However, I would NEVER use a pipe on him. We use a plastic spoon. And, leaving him out in the cold... denying meals... spraying him with a hose... never... I could never do that. That's not punishment. That's cruelty and abuse.

PJ, you seem like a person who has a pretty good understanding of this world and Christianity. You're okay in my book.

But, dude... how can you advocate this type of "discipline"? I find it indefensible.

You can't yet find it indefensible unless you 1) have already read the book or at least more than the (incorrect) quotes of the book on this thread 2) you understand how we modify the book proposals/paradigms.
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22-11-2013, 10:33 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:29 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 09:43 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Why not merely ask me what I don't endorse and then you'll have a fuller picture.

Is something keeping you from simply telling everyone? Is it because:

1. You need to be asked (again)?
2. You enjoy keeping this discussion heated?
3. You're trying to antagonize the more angry posters?
4. You like being called names and accused of child abuse, so you can be the victim?
5. Uber-troll?

Sheesh.
6. All of the above.

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22-11-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:06 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  PJ, you just don't have any awareness of what you are saying and the audience you are saying it to.

Worthless appeals like "the bible says" and "god made" as you well know have no authority or merit here (no matter how strongly you believe they are true) yet you continue to use them. Why do you continue to go to this worthless well of support with your posts here? Are you that fucking stupid?

I feel great sorrow for your children, the children in your "born again" community and any others that are impacted by the Pearl's abusive parenting advice.

The Pearls' methods are rooted in their exegesis and eisegesis of scripture. I'd prefer not to defend the Pearls' book at all if we can have meaningful conversation about the Bible's stance on child rearing.
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22-11-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:32 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 10:00 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  My son is an amalgamation of my stubbornness and Jess' headstrongness.

There is no punishment that works for him except spanking. We've tried it all... talking... reasoning... time out... taking away everything the boy owns... all of it is as effective and trying to kill an elephant with a BB gun.

Spanking resonates with him... so much so that I barely have to spank him anymore. All I have to do is threaten with it, and he usually straightens up. And I never spank without explaining to him why he's being spanked.

However, I would NEVER use a pipe on him. We use a plastic spoon. And, leaving him out in the cold... denying meals... spraying him with a hose... never... I could never do that. That's not punishment. That's cruelty and abuse.

PJ, you seem like a person who has a pretty good understanding of this world and Christianity. You're okay in my book.

But, dude... how can you advocate this type of "discipline"? I find it indefensible.

You can't yet find it indefensible unless you 1) have already read the book or at least more than the (incorrect) quotes of the book on this thread 2) you understand how we modify the book proposals/paradigms.

Well... you're right.

I haven't read the book yet. I'm just going on what has been reported about what's in the book.

In order to form a proper opinion, I need to read it.

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22-11-2013, 10:37 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:25 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 09:37 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  What do you mean by "wait it out"? If you're attending a wedding and the child is screaming and throwing a fit, do you go outside with the child to wait it out for 20 minutes and miss the ceremony?
Whatever you do, don't miss the ceremony... just start "switching" your child right there in front of everyone and completely disrupt it so everyone can also have the occasion ruined for them! Rolleyes

I'm trying to let the other person answer--but the answer is you do NOT ruin your enjoyment of the ceremony while the child screams and yells for thirty minutes until the police stop you outside to hear what is happening!

You ask the child to stop calmly and then if they persist, you leave the ceremony with them, patiently explain what is wrong and the consequences, spank, calm the child, tell them they are forgiven and it's over, ask the child if they want a hug--they don't have to have one if they don't want one--and come back so you both can enjoy the ceremony - two minutes, not 20 or 30 of child-controlled madness.

The point that keeps being missed is the Bible's--let the child grow to be rebellious and stubborn and worldly or help the child become a more mature adult, faster.
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22-11-2013, 10:39 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 09:37 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  What do you mean by "wait it out"? If you're attending a wedding and the child is screaming and throwing a fit, do you go outside with the child to wait it out for 20 minutes and miss the ceremony?

Yes, that's exactly what you do.

And if the child is the RING BEARER? Do we all wait and hold the ceremony, the catering at the reception--pay the band and emcee for overtime, and the honeymoon flight they have two tickets for, for 20 or 30 minutes so that the 300 adults participating can wait on the four-year-old throwing the tantrum?

I don't know if I've ever said this you before, Chas, but I'm sorry, you are 100% wrong in this case. I cannot see your point at all.
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22-11-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:28 AM)PursuingTruth Wrote:  I was spanked as a child, I was also beaten up by my step father, I was left to fend for myself after the age of 12, until I turned 16 when I was old enough to get a job.. I earned money that was taken from me.

Sounds bad eh? True story though.

When I misbehaved, I was given the slipper. Only needed to do it once or twice though. I threw a snooker ball at my step father, and threatened him (cos I was a big man eh?). Only did it once, learned a valuable lesson about controlling myself and how NOT to talk to people. I was left to fend for myself because I was trusted, they knew I could look after myself, they thought it would be better for me to have free reign and learn my own mistakes.. it was a bit too much, as I felt less important to them than I was. When I got a job they taught me the value of money, they took my wages and gave it and more back to me when i could justify what I was spending money on.

Someone once said, if you have to hit a child you have lost the argument. My answer was if you are in an argument with your child, you are not a fit parent. I argued all the time with my parents, I am sure all of us have done, they never argued with me, they TOLD me. In no uncertain terms.

There is very little I would say hitting a child was suitable for, the only things I see as valid reasons, is when it is a direct response ot the child acting in a way in which they were endangering themselves (running across a road, putting fingers in plug socket) It s a lesson that MUST be taught then and there with no discussion, just the explanation.. You do this again and you may die!.

If you hit anyone including a child, you've lost the argument. You do not need to argue with your child. You should NEVER, EVER hit them. You may however, spank them.
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22-11-2013, 10:41 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 09:40 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(21-11-2013 07:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't give out abuse manuals, you fucking moron.

The Pearls' book is not an abuse manual, and again, millions of born again parents use similar methods with their families.

It describes and advocates acts that are abusive to children, it is an abuse manual.

You do not understand the difference, either practical or ethical, between training and teaching.

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22-11-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:32 AM)Impulse Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 09:43 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Taq:

Yes. I endorse most everything in the book. Why not merely ask me what I don't endorse and then you'll have a fuller picture. Also, you haven't given any context of a general sense of the book--only pull quotes from other sources--you haven't read the book.

Let's employ some logic here:

If is says to beat older children with a paddle, then why are younger children not beat with a paddle? Why would the item used to spank (I don't believe the book ever uses the word BEAT) be discarded for the older child?
Here's some logic for you:
If 99% of a book is acceptable and only the other 1% advocates child abuse, the whole book becomes a complete stinking pile of atrocious dog poop and should not be recommended to anyone. It shouldn't even reach publication, but if it does then it should be banned.

The quotes are enough for me not to have to read the rest of the book or listen to what specific parts you disagree with.

Not even 1% of the book advocates, represents or is palatable with anything resembling child abuse.
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22-11-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 10:37 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 10:32 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You can't yet find it indefensible unless you 1) have already read the book or at least more than the (incorrect) quotes of the book on this thread 2) you understand how we modify the book proposals/paradigms.

Well... you're right.

I haven't read the book yet. I'm just going on what has been reported about what's in the book.

In order to form a proper opinion, I need to read it.

I don't think anyone here has to read it. I think, however, that it might be nice if someone said, "You read it twice? What's your take on it."

I'm thinking of asking one of my kids to appear on camera to tell you more about this in person.
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