To train up a child
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 2 Votes - 3 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-11-2013, 01:07 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 11:56 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Thanks for the link.

You're welcome. It helps to have the source material available when debating.

(22-11-2013 11:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  My uncle was a cop and my aunt and uncle weren't born again. My aunt had an unruly child over to visit--she gave him several rounds of fair warning--this kid was a total hellion--and then she handcuffed him to a bed for a while.

Not only did he drop the BS attitude he'd carried to her from how his parents never corrected him--not only did he become a model child in her home on visits--many years going forward and later as an adult he was affectionate with my aunt and hugged her and treated her like a second mom.

So she didn't strike him with as much strength as she could muster without winding up? Good for her. Sounds like a good aunt.

(22-11-2013 11:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Are you certain you read the whole book? You skipped the next few paragraphs which gave a LOT more context. My story about my aunt dovetails with the final paragraph:

"What is hard for some to believe is that the results of that encounter endeared my wife to little Johnny. He seems to love her dearly and demands to be picked up when she is near. Children are comfortable around someone who has control of their own emotions, and with whom they know their limitations. Since this experience and further counseling, the mother and the child are showing great improvement."

Ah... the ends justify the means. I'm not surprised based on the dogma you chose to follow. You're aware of the psychological affect that physical abuse can have where the abused become dependent, and even loving towards, the abuser, yes? Speaking of cops, my family is full of them. I can cite domestic abuse cases where the wife is loving, obedient, and fiercely loyal to her abuser. You call that success, too? The outcome is biblical, after all. Obedient, loving, loyal.

Pearl's book is a whole collection of success stories. Unfortunately, not being an expert in child psychology, he's reduced to using what he knows about training mules. My thoughts:

1. Success is meaningless until you compare it to the failures. Let's collect data on struck children and see how many turned out worse (not including the deaths);
2. Obedience is a survival instinct. You can love what you fear;
3. There is empirical evidence that other methods, not requiring physical contact, will rear fantastic kids. This book gives the impression that any method other than pain and submission is failure;

(22-11-2013 11:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  In other words, the kid got the attention he was seeking with his bad behavior--and the child changed so much in the Pearls' house, the mom was like--what magic spells are you weaving in his life and then she got on board.

Oh my god, it's so magical. I shot my cat in the ass with a ping pong gun when I was about 3. My parents took the gun away and told me why I shouldn't harm animals. I never got my toy gun back. I still remember the lesson.

They didn't hit me, they didn't shoot me in the ass, and I learned to be compassionate towards animals (no Dahmer jokes, please). Evil_monster

Yes, I'm aware of abuse cycles and people who say the abuser loved them and the abusers who say the abused "made them" and all their codependent scariness and etc.

On a survey on Parents.com 80% of parents said they've spanked and 20%+ said they spank weekly. 80% or even 20% of teens are not PTSD shock victims.

When I say "magic" I mean the little brat that was torturing at my aunt's house and became a little angel.

Inside Proverbs 23, which is a chapter filled with Proverbs on self-control:

Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell.[

I'm sorry you still remember having a toy taken away--that's awful to have to carry a melancholy memory. We don't take away our kids' favorite toys, or keep them from going to Disney or watching films, and we never, ever, say "I can't have you in my presence now--time out." We spank. Not in anger, not in hate, not in vengeance. Not without reason. Not without a calm chat with the child.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:11 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:10 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:59 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  ...but choose sometimes non-expedient methods.
a.k.a. choose non-violent methods.

As I have said before.
I teach life skills
Teach them negotiation, compromise, reason.

I think I'm teaching them to be non judgmental, tolerant and respectful of diversity and of other people's choices. That they themselves are important and to be respected.

What is it that you are teaching your kids?
Might makes right?
Control others with use of violence?
Sort out disagreements by violent force?
Don't think, just do as you are told?
Seek permission before doing anything.
That they themselves are worthless.

There's always thinking. Always first is "Look at dad. Hi, son, I need you to please stop doing what you're doing, you're hurting your sister." What you're not hearing is that 95% of the time or more, that's all that's needed. Can most people tell a child, "Look at daddy. Okay, please settle down now and play quietly, dad's on the phone" and then they stop?

We're teaching them to be many things. I don't want to oversimplify but just as they knew some language, grammar, math and reading before grade school due to our efforts, we try to teach that good behavior is rewarded and bad behavior reaps consequences. That's big a lesson that should not be missed.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:15 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:12 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 09:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  A child may be spanked and feel hurt--but this hurt does not lead to longterm trauma... it actually leads to trust in the parents and a longterm pattern of improved behavior. The Bible indicates that not dealing with the child's rebellious nature has implications for them as a child... and as an adult.

NO IT DOES NOT! What the hell is wrong with you? Ask a pediatrician, read the recent studies. Spanking does not teach a kid to trust their parents. The bible indicates that you should sacrifice a bull with a nicely shaped penis and large testicles! The bible indicates that you should stone your children to death for disobedience. The bible is not a credible source. You are an ass. I don't agree with spanking but I don't think people who spank (one swat on the bottom with an open hand) their kids are horrible people. It's lazy and stupid but it isn't evil. What this book advocates is evil and illegal.
My biggest problem with you is that you're a liar. You said you follow almost all of the stuff in the book. From what I've read you do maybe 3 things from the book and not even close to the level the book recommends. You only said it to piss people off. That is so immature.

1) Reverse it. There's only about three things in the book we haven't done.

2) Spanking biblically is excellent, and like so many things the devil and sinful men take a good thing too far like too much wine or too many games of chance or too much TV or whatever. The recent studies are not profiling Christian parents using Pearl and similar. They are including people who beat the tar out of their children or go to spanking after multiple verbal threats--you better stop or else! and you better believe those children are not whole and sully the survey results.

3) We have hardly discussed what I do or what the Bible teaches on this thread--barely at all. Why don't you slow down a bit and judge me later when you have more evidence? Again, if you're so convinced I'm in the wrong, draw it out of me instead of fighting me every step so it's all laid bare for us all to see.

Thanks,
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:17 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:58 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I have both the onus to teach them and a will:

*My will is that they not curse like sailors
*My will is that they bathe daily or every couple of days if they're too tired to bathe after a late night at play
*My will is that they be prompt to school and considerate of their teachers
*My will is that they approach life with a joyous and open-minded attitude
*My will is that they speak respectfully to adults
*My will is that they show every consideration to their mother who bore them

Anything else "I don't have the right" to do in your opinion? Because I reside in America, not Cuba, Russia or China.

You have a responsibility to teach them to be decent human beings.
Your will is unimportant; it is subservient to your responsibility.

Now THAT is a good thing you've said. I agree. My will happens to dovetail in many cases with my responsibility. I don't blame teachers for bratty kids--who do you place responsibility on when you see a reckless, violent child?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: To train up a child
I am appalled that garbage like that is allowed to be published.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Flowergurl's post
22-11-2013, 01:23 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:21 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 12:03 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  When a child tells an adult to shut the hell up or drop dead or etc. you may not call that a sin but I call that a spank-able offense.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to beat sin out of anyone. Paul specifically stated that such treatment seems holy with its mortification of the flesh but is useless to stop anyone from sinning. The flagellants are just another Catholic abuse.

When you spank a child for doing wrong, just like when those who don't spank talk to the child about the wrong, you are showing love and concern for the child.

Well since I don't beat my children I guess they respect me enough that has never happened. Funny how I remember telling my abusive father to go the hell.
Its common human decency to have empathy for others and to be respectfull and polite, if you failed to teach these things at an early age, then you fucked up, sit down and teach some morals not from the BOOK instead, using a failed method. http://healthland.time.com/2012/02/06/wh...esnt-work/

But look at the whole thread--a few people on here were spanked by Christian parents and said "I respect them, I respectfully disagree with them and you, but I don't think spanking is the end of the world."

But yes, when someone has an abusive parent(s) of course they're going to loathe spanking. If your parents shove broccoli down your throat--you don't want to force your kids to eat veggies. That's a NORMAL reaction. But your kids still ought to eat more produce and less Burger King.

That's why Proverbs says, "Your kids won't die if you spank." God knows that's how a parent talks, "If I had to spank my child, I'd just DIE. I don't want to HURT them."

But their coach wants their muscles sore after the high school workout. The math club faculty wants them tired from studying formulae. Some pain can be great gain.

I'm not dissing those here who never spank and have great kids. Colleges, however, formally pushed aside home school kids, and now recruit them, because they are exceptional kids, including kids of more liberal and progressive parents and a LOT of Christian kids whose parents spank.

I'd step in front of a bus for my kids! So as hard as it was sometimes, as much as I had to get my act together, I spanked them. They didn't turn out to be good kids. They turned out fabulous!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:27 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  This thread is the reason why there are anti-theists instead of just atheists. This is not a debate on spanking a child. This is an argument of whether child abuse is acceptable or not. On this thread the prevailing Christian opinion on this matter seems to yes, child abuse is fine, but I don't think and sincerely hope that is not the norm.

Spanking a child is debatable. Personally I am okay with spanking. I am not okay with hitting.

Starving a child, forcing a child to shower outside with a hose, mistreating a baby for using their diaper, freezing your child in the winter....this is not acceptable. If you disagree, and think your god endorses any of the above then then your god is evil and not worthy of worship, and you are a stupid asshole for following, or are evil and deserve the worst punishment mankind can fathom.

We've held food over to a second meal or overnight, never for multiple days until it turned nasty. A spanking should make them want to eat--I would disagree with the Pearls on that.

You still are using hyperbole like "freezing your kids"--did the Pearls deliver their kids to Darth Vader encased in carbonite?

I've forced my kids to be sprayed down with a hose, especially their feet if they had a bunch of mud on them after playing in the yard during the summer. You make it sound like the Pearls did this in some public setting.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:30 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:39 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 12:20 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  My wife and I are good parents. We have had a willingness to teach... in fact we do teach. We invest a lot of our lives into teaching our kids. We teach them politeness, sharing, self control etc. He also teach them obedience. The way obedience is reinforced and obtained differs with each of our children.

Not sure what you define as obedience, but it sounds amoral in your sentence.

Obedience = obeys commands. Which of you atheists feel strongly it is important for a child to learn to say NO! as often as possible and disobey a parent's commands? Not suggestions or opportunities for growth. Commands, like to a seven-year-old, "Johnny, you were supposed to play in the front yard and not in the street. I told you to tell me when your ball was thrown too far and ended up in the street. Stay here and I'll get it." NO! BAM! Johnny is dead.

The Bible says THE WISE IN HEART OBEY COMMANDS.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 01:21 PM)Flowergurl Wrote:  I am appalled that garbage like that is allowed to be published.

You should not be appalled that in the USA where there is freedom of speech such a work may see print.

You might, however, be alarmed that several children have died. However, several million Christians put the precepts of this book into daily practice.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-11-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 12:27 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  This thread is the reason why there are anti-theists instead of just atheists. This is not a debate on spanking a child. This is an argument of whether child abuse is acceptable or not. On this thread the prevailing Christian opinion on this matter seems to yes, child abuse is fine, but I don't think and sincerely hope that is not the norm.

Spanking a child is debatable. Personally I am okay with spanking. I am not okay with hitting.

Starving a child, forcing a child to shower outside with a hose, mistreating a baby for using their diaper, freezing your child in the winter....this is not acceptable. If you disagree, and think your god endorses any of the above then then your god is evil and not worthy of worship, and you are a stupid asshole for following, or are evil and deserve the worst punishment mankind can fathom.

We've held food over to a second meal or overnight, never for multiple days until it turned nasty. A spanking should make them want to eat--I would disagree with the Pearls on that.

You still are using hyperbole like "freezing your kids"--did the Pearls deliver their kids to Darth Vader encased in carbonite?

I've forced my kids to be sprayed down with a hose, especially their feet if they had a bunch of mud on them after playing in the yard during the summer. You make it sound like the Pearls did this in some public setting.

Depriving your children adequate food when you HAVE the food is torture whether it is several days, or one day, or one meal.

It isn't a hyperbole. Sending your child out to sleep or stay outside in sub frozen temperatures is freezing them, but even if it's let's say 38 degrees Fahrenheit, you are still torturing them and causing them potentially deadly or at least permanently damaging harm.

Don't give me that bullshit. Pearl didn't call for you to spray you children's muddy feet off in the back yard. He called for forcing them to shower outside with cold water from a hose. Public or private, it is not 'okay'.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dark Light's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: