To train up a child
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22-11-2013, 01:54 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 12:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:46 AM)Impulse Wrote:  You missed the whole point, didn't you...

Any amount of advocating child abuse renders the entire book horrific, I don't care if it's only 0.0000001%.

Let me help you. 0%,(bullshit almost the entire book advocates abuse) but when I say "go too far" a lot of Christians don't have the guts or the patience to do all they did and do.

It's not about guts or patience. Most people don't have the stomach or cold heart to beat their children.
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22-11-2013, 02:03 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 01:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 12:12 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  NO IT DOES NOT! What the hell is wrong with you? Ask a pediatrician, read the recent studies. Spanking does not teach a kid to trust their parents. The bible indicates that you should sacrifice a bull with a nicely shaped penis and large testicles! The bible indicates that you should stone your children to death for disobedience. The bible is not a credible source. You are an ass. I don't agree with spanking but I don't think people who spank (one swat on the bottom with an open hand) their kids are horrible people. It's lazy and stupid but it isn't evil. What this book advocates is evil and illegal.
My biggest problem with you is that you're a liar. You said you follow almost all of the stuff in the book. From what I've read you do maybe 3 things from the book and not even close to the level the book recommends. You only said it to piss people off. That is so immature.

1) Reverse it. There's only about three things in the book we haven't done.

2) Spanking biblically is excellent, and like so many things the devil and sinful men take a good thing too far like too much wine or too many games of chance or too much TV or whatever. The recent studies are not profiling Christian parents using Pearl and similar. They are including people who beat the tar out of their children or go to spanking after multiple verbal threats--you better stop or else! and you better believe those children are not whole and sully the survey results.

3) We have hardly discussed what I do or what the Bible teaches on this thread--barely at all. Why don't you slow down a bit and judge me later when you have more evidence? Again, if you're so convinced I'm in the wrong, draw it out of me instead of fighting me every step so it's all laid bare for us all to see.

Thanks,

Fuck you ok. You are a liar, I follow the book, I don't follow it, I do follow it. You make me sick and I really hope you're just lying about the whole thing. Please please stop giving people parenting advice. Please don't give that book out.
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22-11-2013, 02:23 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  On a survey on Parents.com 80% of parents said they've spanked and 20%+ said they spank weekly. 80% or even 20% of teens are not PTSD shock victims.

You should look up the definition, and symptoms, of PTSD. I did not mention PTSD nor its symptoms.

(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  When I say "magic" I mean the little brat that was torturing at my aunt's house and became a little angel.

Without being struck. Ding ding ding.

(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Inside Proverbs 23, which is a chapter filled with Proverbs on self-control:

Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell.[

Any other quotes in the bible regarding disobedient children? Bueller? Bueller?

(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm sorry you still remember having a toy taken away--that's awful to have to carry a melancholy memory. We don't take away our kids' favorite toys, or keep them from going to Disney or watching films, and we never, ever, say "I can't have you in my presence now--time out." We spank. Not in anger, not in hate, not in vengeance. Not without reason. Not without a calm chat with the child.

You're projecting, and missing the point. It isn't a melancholy memory. I learned to take responsibility for my actions. And when I was older and demonstrated that responsibility, I got a new toy gun (a big one)... an event I also remember. Causing me any sort of pain only induced rage and defiance; those are the memories I could do without. Pearl's solution would have been to keep striking me until I 'broke' like a horse.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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22-11-2013, 02:25 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 01:51 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 01:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We've held food over to a second meal or overnight, never for multiple days until it turned nasty. A spanking should make them want to eat--I would disagree with the Pearls on that.

You still are using hyperbole like "freezing your kids"--did the Pearls deliver their kids to Darth Vader encased in carbonite?

I've forced my kids to be sprayed down with a hose, especially their feet if they had a bunch of mud on them after playing in the yard during the summer. You make it sound like the Pearls did this in some public setting.

Depriving your children adequate food when you HAVE the food is torture whether it is several days, or one day, or one meal.

It isn't a hyperbole. Sending your child out to sleep or stay outside in sub frozen temperatures is freezing them, but even if it's let's say 38 degrees Fahrenheit, you are still torturing them and causing them potentially deadly or at least permanently damaging harm.

Don't give me that bullshit. Pearl didn't call for you to spray you children's muddy feet off in the back yard. He called for forcing them to shower outside with cold water from a hose. Public or private, it is not 'okay'.

We're going ape here because instead of saying "spank" I dropped some Pearls.

Adequate food? One meal? = Torture?

My mom wasn't a Christian when she had me sit and face down a hot dog I moaned about at dinner for two hours until I ate it. It wasn't torture and I do remember the starving, the real starving, in America and elsewhere.

When a kid skips a meal, they are hungry. When a kid is dizzy from malnutrition or bloated, they're starving.

Jews routinely fast for 24 hours for Yom Kippur. Now you're calling Judaism torture.
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22-11-2013, 02:27 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 01:04 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 10:34 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The Pearls' methods are rooted in their exegesis and eisegesis of scripture. I'd prefer not to defend the Pearls' book at all if we can have meaningful conversation about the Bible's stance on child rearing.

Since the bible is constantly referenced for guidance in raising children, I would love for PJ to answer a couple of straight forward questions that should be apparent if he knows the book that he references so often.

1.) Please list all of the ways god instructs man to deal with disobedient/disrespectful children?

From memory? If you are an Old Testament Jew and the child is an adult and is drinking/carousing and assaulting parents, death (Exodus, Zechariah, etc.)

If the child is not an adult (and contextually can speak/listen/reason) you admonish, talk, reprove, reward, train, educate and spank as needed.

2.) Why did you choose your specific biblical methods for your children?

Because I'd heard they would be a tremendous opportunity for both their growth and mine. They were and are.
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22-11-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 01:54 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 12:00 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Let me help you. 0%,(bullshit almost the entire book advocates abuse) but when I say "go too far" a lot of Christians don't have the guts or the patience to do all they did and do.

It's not about guts or patience. Most people don't have the stomach or cold heart to beat their children.

I certainly don't. I find it hard enough to spank. I've never hurt my children with a beating--my daughter came home late about a month ago without calling. I was upset--she was three hours late or so--she told me she was counseling a friend whose dad was abusive just after her boyfriend had physically abused her/hit her.

She said, "I know you're upset dad, but I wanted to say I'm so glad you've never hit me or abused me."

For someone who has been spanked hundreds of times, how you do reconcile that she said I never hit her? She means never in anger, never with fist or hand or belt or anything.

Hit yourself on the hand with a wooden spoon. It will sting. It will "hurt" if you're a bit of a woos. I know I don't like it. You won't die. You won't bleed.
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22-11-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 02:03 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 01:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1) Reverse it. There's only about three things in the book we haven't done.

2) Spanking biblically is excellent, and like so many things the devil and sinful men take a good thing too far like too much wine or too many games of chance or too much TV or whatever. The recent studies are not profiling Christian parents using Pearl and similar. They are including people who beat the tar out of their children or go to spanking after multiple verbal threats--you better stop or else! and you better believe those children are not whole and sully the survey results.

3) We have hardly discussed what I do or what the Bible teaches on this thread--barely at all. Why don't you slow down a bit and judge me later when you have more evidence? Again, if you're so convinced I'm in the wrong, draw it out of me instead of fighting me every step so it's all laid bare for us all to see.

Thanks,

Fuck you ok. You are a liar, I follow the book, I don't follow it, I do follow it. You make me sick and I really hope you're just lying about the whole thing. Please please stop giving people parenting advice. Please don't give that book out.

I follow the book. I'd never push my kid into water if they can't swim. We never hosed down our kids in potty training. We did say very calmly, "Do be careful..." when they scraped their knees rather than "Oh, poor BABY. I need to give you hugsies wugsies because you hurt your wittle knee..." just as the Pearls suggest, and over time, our kids were able to take the blows and hurts of the world better without sobbing in the corner.

You could follow the book a little bit and have well behaved kids. You could follow the book a lot and have very well behaved kids. You could be less proactive or more so in your child's life. Your call.

Church begins with families and passionate individuals. If the church obeyed the NT rules for elders (must have a decent, obedient family) rather than look to seminary degrees and speaking skills, the church would have less leader errors and the world would respect the church more than it does now.
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22-11-2013, 02:43 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 02:23 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  On a survey on Parents.com 80% of parents said they've spanked and 20%+ said they spank weekly. 80% or even 20% of teens are not PTSD shock victims.

You should look up the definition, and symptoms, of PTSD. I did not mention PTSD nor its symptoms.

(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  When I say "magic" I mean the little brat that was torturing at my aunt's house and became a little angel.

Without being struck. Ding ding ding.

(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Inside Proverbs 23, which is a chapter filled with Proverbs on self-control:

Do not withhold correction from a child,
For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 You shall beat him with a rod,
And deliver his soul from hell.[

Any other quotes in the bible regarding disobedient children? Bueller? Bueller?

(22-11-2013 01:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm sorry you still remember having a toy taken away--that's awful to have to carry a melancholy memory. We don't take away our kids' favorite toys, or keep them from going to Disney or watching films, and we never, ever, say "I can't have you in my presence now--time out." We spank. Not in anger, not in hate, not in vengeance. Not without reason. Not without a calm chat with the child.

You're projecting, and missing the point. It isn't a melancholy memory. I learned to take responsibility for my actions. And when I was older and demonstrated that responsibility, I got a new toy gun (a big one)... an event I also remember. Causing me any sort of pain only induced rage and defiance; those are the memories I could do without. Pearl's solution would have been to keep striking me until I 'broke' like a horse.

Hyperbole. But y'all make it sound like spanking a kid gives them PTSD! Most kids in the world have been spanked. You can tell all the ones who aren't at the mall, at the restaurant, at the football games, with rare exceptions.

Yes, I've left out Bible verses on purpose. I know how you'd react if I shared "He who HATES his son spares the rod."

Do you know what "broke like a horse" means? I'll help you:

*The Greek "meek" as in the meek shall inherit means "like a racehorse, powerful but compliant and trained"!

*The Pearls live in Amish country, where an untrained horse is death on a paved road that cars also use. Death. You want your kids to stop when they cross the street or attempt it. Life and death.

*The Pearls live in Amish country--where they witness to the many Amish who think they're saved by works--and they know how to "break horses". You don't beat a horse to break it!

*A child has a MUCH, MUCH stronger will than a dog, cat or horse. How many kids have you raised? MUCH stronger. It takes years of patient, loving parenting to make very fine young people.

My wife and I come from the Northeast US and we're not hicks. We both have degrees from a university. Her IQ tests at a Mensa level. We've heard all the BS about spanking and not spanking before we had kids. I know the Pearls come off as somewhere between folksy/homey and creepy, I get it. We care about our kids, and eyed each step along the way of training, daily. Our children are articulate, creative, intelligent--and respectful. Many adults have commented on their personality.

But the Bible is correct, 100% that any child will become the holy terror without some kind of training. EVERY parent on here who disagrees with spanking trains or educates their child patiently, someway, somehow.

I've known HUNDREDS of Christians including our own family who NEVER had terrible twos and teen rebellions. Never. We had lovely young people who could speak and live with us as peers.

My kids have been spanked many times and they are still headstrong and stubborn. They are still competitive and fierce at times. But they know Jesus and they know their parents love them and care about them in every sense of those words.
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22-11-2013, 02:46 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 11:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  A ring bearer isn't necessary, you just carry on.

You can't see my point because you are a brainwashed barbarian.

But the rings are necessary in many cases--but yes, when we're done playing sematic games--let's just say this:

Not only should 300 people not wait for a brat, their two parents or one guardian or whomever should not wait.

They don't pay rent, they don't vote, they don't drink, they don't conscript in the military--and they don't take charge over every aspect of my life and time--and neither should your cat(s).

If I say to you "Grow up, Chas" I'm saying "be an adult" which means "not a child" which means "mature enough not to throw tantrums in public or private without consequences." A fellow threw one at work here this morning and was let go from his employment!

This may not apply to everyone on this forum but I'll share it--what you're calling "abuse" I call "Look, atheists don't want consequences meted for sin, not for themselves, and not for anyone's children."

Grow up, please!

one does not simply hit a 4 weeks old for crying

I don't really like going outside.
It's too damn "peopley" out there....
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22-11-2013, 02:57 PM
RE: To train up a child
(22-11-2013 02:46 PM)Lightvader Wrote:  
(22-11-2013 11:39 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But the rings are necessary in many cases--but yes, when we're done playing sematic games--let's just say this:

Not only should 300 people not wait for a brat, their two parents or one guardian or whomever should not wait.

They don't pay rent, they don't vote, they don't drink, they don't conscript in the military--and they don't take charge over every aspect of my life and time--and neither should your cat(s).

If I say to you "Grow up, Chas" I'm saying "be an adult" which means "not a child" which means "mature enough not to throw tantrums in public or private without consequences." A fellow threw one at work here this morning and was let go from his employment!

This may not apply to everyone on this forum but I'll share it--what you're calling "abuse" I call "Look, atheists don't want consequences meted for sin, not for themselves, and not for anyone's children."

Grow up, please!

one does not simply hit a 4 weeks old for crying

One does not simply walk into Mordor with even 10,000 men, and one does not simply hit a 4-week-old for crying nor should one joke about doing so, so I'll assume you were being serious.

We did not spank until past one year old when we could communicate with our children verbally. Thanks.
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