To train up a child
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27-11-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: To train up a child
(26-11-2013 10:06 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I used to believe in spanking, I was indoctrinated to think it was what "Good" parents did.
And I even thought it some how made me a tougher person. It was all Bullshit.I smacked my daughters leg and had flashback's of my own abuse. all most threw up, 16 years later i still feel like a scum bag.

My Daughters are kind, caring, have great empathy for others, and don't have any subconscious fear of me.

I understand. It's hard, like I've written on this thread, to spank if you were hit abusively or in anger. No, you never want to miss a behind and hit a leg or thigh--that can hurt, of course.

I'm sorry you still are feeling it these years later. Have you discussed it with your daughter since she's grown up, I mean recently? Let her talk rather than telling her what she should think and she'll likely say, "I think you were trying to help me" and etc.
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27-11-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 01:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  He's been shown to be a liar and he advocates a book of abuse.

Why is anyone responding to him, let alone taking him seriously?

Oh Chas...you're such a buzz-kill at times.
Heart

I didn't start it... Tongue

Don't make me spank you. Dodgy

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-11-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 01:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 09:58 AM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I'm really tired of your semantics game. You didn't spank them with your open hand - you spanked them with a wooden spoon. You still struck them.

That's like saying, your honor, I didn't punch her with a closed fist, I backhanded her across the face!! Therefore, it wasn't an act of violence. Case closed!! Domestic abuse/assault charges dropped!!

What difference does it make *what* you hit them with?! You hit them. Period.

I don't believe you that it wasn't out of anger or frustration. All hitting is out of some form of frustration. Even if you do it with an even tone.

It's almost like after a thorough spanking, you calmly tell them, "there now. That wasn't so bad, was it? Daddy didn't hit you out of anger..."

It's gas lighting. A form of abuse in itself that you would justify ANY act of violence against your children when a simple time out or other discipline methods would have sufficed. You started out with spanking or flicking...you didn't try other methods first.

I freely admit that I once held that spanking was ok. I was spanked. I feel like I turned out ok. What other way did I know of?

Life is just a gamble. We don't know, due to the complexities of human relationships, just what will happen. The best we can ever do is take an educated guess as to which table to lay our chips on.

Now after reading the overwhelming evidence that chances of having negative effects are far greater than the chance of success, I have officially removed my chips from that table. It's not worth the gamble for me.

Doing something out of tradition is rather short sighted and stupid. In fact, it crowds out any room for growth, and innovation. Doctors used to bleed patients with fevers as a cure. Should they continue to do that because it was done in the past and sometimes had favorable results? Imagine what medicine would look like today if we always stuck with tradition?

I'm really shocked that you embrace changes of culture from the bible in other aspects of your life but not this? You no longer buy and sell women like stocks, or advocate the countless other atrocities contained within the text. Why not this too?

Since you think that god is responsible for everything. And therefore also responsible for human advancement, isn't ignoring the information "god" produced as grievance of a sin as letting your child die of a treatable medical condition because it was once tradition to pray away disease?

I'd like to comment on the off topic comments first--then maybe we can focus on spanking and this thread again?

There is in a Matthew passage a statement that Jesus healed those who came to Him "demon possessed or with sickness" - the notion that all disease is metaphysical or that all pathologies require only prayer is not only untrue today, but I don't think even the medieval church taught that. In Jesus's day, in the Bible, in the Middle Ages and now, you could use medicines and poultices and natural cures--prayer wasn't the sole way. I can tell you, however, that prayer is a boon when the doctors are stumped, both for the sick and those who care for them.

It's hard to comment on the "countless atrocities in the text" when they're mainly taken from their proper context. For example, the one you listed included "buying and selling women like stocks". There were dowries in the Bible and there were "gets" for divorces, too. They were Mosaic laws and laws in the prophets where marriage and divorce were economically favoring the women above the men, so, I mean--you just need to read the Bible more, I think, rather than cherry picking verses. Anyone who compares Jesus's treatment of women or the apostles--Paul told men to go to certain women and let them tell them what to do and how to do it--against the Gentile and Roman treatment... which was scandalous...

As for the rest of your post that led to your other comments, I'd say it's slightly irritating to have you keep saying "You're lying." I said many times, you don't spank in anger, period.

But if we take your insinuation further, we have that a judge couldn't possibly be calm when he issues a verdict, or a juror couldn't possibly render an impartial decision and that's ridiculous. When a child lies to you or steals from you or throws a glass of water at you, you can go to the other room and calm down. When you return, is it not possible to train, educate or mete out a punishment while being calm? Are you sure?

And no, let's not play semantics. I and my wife only struck my children or hit them with objects. They (sometimes) cried. They sometimes got pissed at us and didn't cry and yelled at us or talked back to us after--showing they still had some spunk, right?

80% and up of parents spank. Not all of them run about with chain saws and drink beer and hunt ducks, either.

I hear your passion against striking a child with an object, when you're calm, in love, and with patient words of instruction for the child, and then telling them after, they will be forgiven.

Regardless, I stand behind "He who hates his child spares him discipline" and there will be consequences.

And to cut to the chase--spiritual as well as emotional consequences.

If you want to be taken seriously you're going to have to disavow that book.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-11-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: To train up a child
(26-11-2013 12:02 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 10:06 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I used to believe in spanking, I was indoctrinated to think it was what "Good" parents did.

It's this misconception that PJ has.
He equates spanked and "broken willed" children with legally abiding, polite adults.

IMHO all children need are parents whom take an active interest in them. The children whom grow up to be "off the rails" are often the ones whose parents paid little attention to, or too much (in the case of abuse). But parents who actively go out in search for parenting books, spend the time to implement them already are the ones with an active interest. They are not likely to lock the kids in the car in the car park while they spend all day either at the pub or at the casino.

A decent study would be to compare children as they grow through to adults where their parents subscribed to different parental advise.
Maybe those that used "Politically Incorrect Parenting" by Nigel Latta vs those that used "to train up a child"

There are many non-spanked, polite adults. There are many non-spanked vile, angry adults. A key point is "Jesus was spanked for us" - He took our punishment for our own sin. A spanked child very easily trusts in Christ, and often at a tender age. If that's a reason you dislike spanking, that's a decision you need to make!
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27-11-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: To train up a child
(26-11-2013 12:29 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 08:09 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand your concern. I do not think it's unreasonable. Having "been there" I can tell you that excessive would be a different thing entirely.

GREAT -- we have the assurance of the ABUSER that the ABUSE is "not excessive". REAL convincing. Rolleyes

You need not stand on that. You can call me or we can Skype and talk it out.
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27-11-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 01:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 08:52 AM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  Seriously PraiseJesus - as many posts made in this thread and ideas/suggestions/observations offered -- you **still** advocate spanking?
Really?

Most people when faced by incredible education and sound judgement will respond with: "Wow.... never thought of it that way = Ok. Maybe I was wrong to spank."

Course that requires rational thinking. And you Rationalize your thinking.
Psssst -- those two are NOT the same thing. Just sayin

I am aware of the alternatives to spanking. One I've tried to address several times in this thread without getting a response is "time out". "I don't want you here right now... go to your room alone..." where the child sulks... and feels keenly alone... we never did that.

Another item I've attempted to discuss here is that a spanking--and it's over--takes a minute or two to do it calmly and to address the child's questions and etc. Time outs and arguments and long talks can take ten times as long. I understand that people say on this thread "You're just lazy" or "You're just in a rush" but going from a frustrated or angry child to a pleasant child in two minutes is different than the kid crying along in their room for 45 minutes. The latter can truly affect the child's psyche.

Again, I'm willing to talk more details about how I do what I do and why it works both for parents and children, but simply telling me I'm obstinate in my ways is something we both already have learned. Smile Let's discuss the issues, not whether I'm aware of them!

Who does time out for 45 minutes?
We never have time out somewhere that the kids play. Time out is in the time out chair in the same room as me. One minute for each year, so 4 minutes for my son and 5 minutes for my daughter. I think beyond 5 years old time out is useless so we won't be doing it too much longer. Time out is A) time for a child to regain their composure and/or B) time that the child is not allowed to play or do whatever they were wanting to do. I have never told my kids I don't want them around or to get away from me. I don't have any problem dealing with a crying child or having a long talk with my kids. It doesn't frustrate me to take time out of my day to make sure my kids understand why certain behavior is more desirable. I want my kids to do the right thing because they know why it is right, not because they are afraid of me or because they have been conditioned to do whatever I say. I have never been in a situation where I thought that spanking them would help them understand what is right and what is wrong and why. Spanking a child teaches them that their parents will hurt them when the make mistakes. I teach my kids that it is okay and normal to make mistakes and the most important thing is to admit their mistakes and learn from them.
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27-11-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 01:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 01:55 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Oh Chas...you're such a buzz-kill at times.
Heart

I didn't start it... Tongue

Don't make me spank you. Dodgy

No you won't because you know I'd enjoy it too much Sad


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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27-11-2013, 02:04 PM
RE: To train up a child
(26-11-2013 01:48 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 08:24 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If we were uninterested in teaching, why did we home school each child until high school?
Because you wanted to make sure your kids were good and brainwashed before you let them around people who could help them?

I see you trimmed much of my post. We went to soccer games, shared in a home school community and participated in secular schools projects. For a part of the time they were in home school, I was teaching as a visitor to secular schools. My father and father-in-law were teachers. My wife and I have high intelligence and are passionate about education.

If you have a question, ask it. As for your comment about being brainwashed before exposure to the world, you are incorrect. We purposely made sure to expose them to the world so that they wouldn't be the typical American dropouts from Christianity later in life.

For example, one time I brought them to a public preaching setting. After I preached, I said, "Kids, what did you think of the Christians here today?"

"They were polite and waited their turn to ask you questions," the kids said.

"And what about the atheists that came here today?" I asked.

"They kept cursing and yelling at you, saying terrible things. They were angry and rude all day," my kids said.

"By George, I think you've got it," I replied.
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27-11-2013, 02:06 PM
RE: To train up a child
(26-11-2013 01:54 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 08:27 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I respectfully disagree with certain things taught in schools and by psychologists--moreover, I'm in my rights to do so. I 100% agree with CPS where they take a strong stand against striking a child in anger. I don't subscribe to everything CPS or Planned Parenthood or the President or other authorities hold to be facts, and neither should you.

You are not in your rights to commit illegal acts of abuse against your children. The fact that it is illegal means you do not have a right to do it. You can claim it is not abuse but the law says otherwise. You can disagree and you do not stand alone but there are certainly not enough people to stand with you to get the law change. You are in a diminishing minority of barbaric people who still think it's ok to abuse your kids. You can separate yourself from the unloving belt users, but the rest of the world sees you as just as unloving. We put you in the same group as the other abusers. Being a Christian doesn't make it ok.

Have you shared these thoughts with KC, who spanks his son? He's a mod here. Did you tell him he is an abuser?

You're not getting it yet. You can move Earth not Heaven to not spank now, and there will be consequences for the child and for you down the road.
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27-11-2013, 02:07 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 01:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 01:42 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  That is so creepy

I think it's bullshit just by the way PJ worded it

His children presented publicly with their parents.

Presented with us. With their mom and dad [first names withheld]. The four of us. The happy family. I've offered time and again on this thread for us to appear on camera since you are disbelieving.

Rather than accuse me at a distance, stop nitpicking and read the thread and let's discuss the issues.
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