To train up a child
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27-11-2013, 02:10 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 01:52 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 01:46 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I think it's bullshit just by the way PJ worded it

His children presented publicly with their parents.

He's been shown to be a liar and he advocates a book of abuse.

Why is anyone responding to him, let alone taking him seriously?

Because extraordinary claims not only require extraordinary evidence, but are compelling. I stand on the witness that one of the ways you can know the Bible is accurate is to discipline your children in love and watch them transform from darling little theists and angry young atheists into joyous Christians. Jesus disciplines the world and also offers the world love.

Does this look like a fetish or abuser website to your eyes?

http://nogreaterjoy.org/

Have you talked with persons who have used the Pearls book personally, rather than taking my word for it online?
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27-11-2013, 02:11 PM
RE: To train up a child
It usually is a happy family that's presented to the public in abusive households.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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27-11-2013, 02:13 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 01:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 01:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'd like to comment on the off topic comments first--then maybe we can focus on spanking and this thread again?

There is in a Matthew passage a statement that Jesus healed those who came to Him "demon possessed or with sickness" - the notion that all disease is metaphysical or that all pathologies require only prayer is not only untrue today, but I don't think even the medieval church taught that. In Jesus's day, in the Bible, in the Middle Ages and now, you could use medicines and poultices and natural cures--prayer wasn't the sole way. I can tell you, however, that prayer is a boon when the doctors are stumped, both for the sick and those who care for them.

It's hard to comment on the "countless atrocities in the text" when they're mainly taken from their proper context. For example, the one you listed included "buying and selling women like stocks". There were dowries in the Bible and there were "gets" for divorces, too. They were Mosaic laws and laws in the prophets where marriage and divorce were economically favoring the women above the men, so, I mean--you just need to read the Bible more, I think, rather than cherry picking verses. Anyone who compares Jesus's treatment of women or the apostles--Paul told men to go to certain women and let them tell them what to do and how to do it--against the Gentile and Roman treatment... which was scandalous...

As for the rest of your post that led to your other comments, I'd say it's slightly irritating to have you keep saying "You're lying." I said many times, you don't spank in anger, period.

But if we take your insinuation further, we have that a judge couldn't possibly be calm when he issues a verdict, or a juror couldn't possibly render an impartial decision and that's ridiculous. When a child lies to you or steals from you or throws a glass of water at you, you can go to the other room and calm down. When you return, is it not possible to train, educate or mete out a punishment while being calm? Are you sure?

And no, let's not play semantics. I and my wife only struck my children or hit them with objects. They (sometimes) cried. They sometimes got pissed at us and didn't cry and yelled at us or talked back to us after--showing they still had some spunk, right?

80% and up of parents spank. Not all of them run about with chain saws and drink beer and hunt ducks, either.

I hear your passion against striking a child with an object, when you're calm, in love, and with patient words of instruction for the child, and then telling them after, they will be forgiven.

Regardless, I stand behind "He who hates his child spares him discipline" and there will be consequences.

And to cut to the chase--spiritual as well as emotional consequences.

If you want to be taken seriously you're going to have to disavow that book.

MSBB has a fetishist's quote in her signature, a known publisher of violent pornography. Have you told her that violent porn against women and men is ugly and inappropriate? Double standard.
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27-11-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 01:54 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  You are not in your rights to commit illegal acts of abuse against your children. The fact that it is illegal means you do not have a right to do it. You can claim it is not abuse but the law says otherwise. You can disagree and you do not stand alone but there are certainly not enough people to stand with you to get the law change. You are in a diminishing minority of barbaric people who still think it's ok to abuse your kids. You can separate yourself from the unloving belt users, but the rest of the world sees you as just as unloving. We put you in the same group as the other abusers. Being a Christian doesn't make it ok.

Have you shared these thoughts with KC, who spanks his son? He's a mod here. Did you tell him he is an abuser?

You're not getting it yet. You can move Earth not Heaven to not spank now, and there will be consequences for the child and for you down the road.

Where is your evidence that the parents and children from every non-spanking family in the world suffers consequences?
KC knows how to read so I'm sure he has gotten the gist if my opinion. I think spanking a child is stupid and lazy but I won't call someone who does the occasional one or two swats an abuser. KC himself said he doesn't advocate the book and he thinks your method of 30 to 40 swats excessive. I will take it a step further to say it is blatant disgusting child abuse.
I don't know KC and I don't know where he lives, but if using an implement is illegal where he lives then yes it is legally child abuse.

I hope your children decide not to continue the abuse onto your grandchildren. As people are paying more and more attention and seeing more and more cases where children are dying, more people are stepping up and reporting abusers. I am sure you don't want to be bailing one of your kids out of jail on child abuse charges.
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27-11-2013, 02:17 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 02:01 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 01:42 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I am aware of the alternatives to spanking. One I've tried to address several times in this thread without getting a response is "time out". "I don't want you here right now... go to your room alone..." where the child sulks... and feels keenly alone... we never did that.

Another item I've attempted to discuss here is that a spanking--and it's over--takes a minute or two to do it calmly and to address the child's questions and etc. Time outs and arguments and long talks can take ten times as long. I understand that people say on this thread "You're just lazy" or "You're just in a rush" but going from a frustrated or angry child to a pleasant child in two minutes is different than the kid crying along in their room for 45 minutes. The latter can truly affect the child's psyche.

Again, I'm willing to talk more details about how I do what I do and why it works both for parents and children, but simply telling me I'm obstinate in my ways is something we both already have learned. Smile Let's discuss the issues, not whether I'm aware of them!

Who does time out for 45 minutes?
We never have time out somewhere that the kids play. Time out is in the time out chair in the same room as me. One minute for each year, so 4 minutes for my son and 5 minutes for my daughter. I think beyond 5 years old time out is useless so we won't be doing it too much longer. Time out is A) time for a child to regain their composure and/or B) time that the child is not allowed to play or do whatever they were wanting to do. I have never told my kids I don't want them around or to get away from me. I don't have any problem dealing with a crying child or having a long talk with my kids. It doesn't frustrate me to take time out of my day to make sure my kids understand why certain behavior is more desirable. I want my kids to do the right thing because they know why it is right, not because they are afraid of me or because they have been conditioned to do whatever I say. I have never been in a situation where I thought that spanking them would help them understand what is right and what is wrong and why. Spanking a child teaches them that their parents will hurt them when the make mistakes. I teach my kids that it is okay and normal to make mistakes and the most important thing is to admit their mistakes and learn from them.

I affirm much of what you wrote. I disagree with your comment, "Spanking a child teaches them that their parents will hurt them when they make mistakes." That is categorically unfair and rather untrue:

*Spanking is a consequence of doing wrong, not of making a mistake or doing something to merely irritate someone

*Hopefully your kids respond--a spanking often changes a child's behavior to the positive for hours or days--time outs might need to happen over and again

*Spanking is about consequences--how is time out teaching them it's wrong to push a child down until the child cries and bleeds from scraping themselves on the driveway? What would you do if a ten-year-old stole a $50 toy and then when caught, threw it to the ground and broke it? Pay the $50, fill out the police forms and then take the child home and say, "No TV or playing for ten minutes since you're ten years old?"
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27-11-2013, 02:18 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 02:13 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 01:59 PM)Chas Wrote:  If you want to be taken seriously you're going to have to disavow that book.

MSBB has a fetishist's quote in her signature, a known publisher of violent pornography. Have you told her that violent porn against women and men is ugly and inappropriate? Double standard.

Wtf are you comparing child abuse to consensual sexual fetish between adults?
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27-11-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 02:04 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  For example, one time I brought them to a public preaching setting. After I preached, I said, "Kids, what did you think of the Christians here today?"

"They were polite and waited their turn to ask you questions," the kids said.

"And what about the atheists that came here today?" I asked.

"They kept cursing and yelling at you, saying terrible things. They were angry and rude all day," my kids said.

"By George, I think you've got it," I replied.

That sounds like teaching kids to stereotype. Speaking of stereotypes... you all look like such a happy family!

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If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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27-11-2013, 02:26 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 02:11 PM)Anjele Wrote:  It usually is a happy family that's presented to the public in abusive households.

And a happy family often appears in non-abusive households.

Our kids run, skip and play. Other spanked kids in our church and sister churches around town attend Ivy League and other schools, were high school valedictorians and salutatorians, excelled in many areas... next you'll tell me about all the abused Asian kids who won spelling bees and went to Harvard, also.

What do you want me to say? The kids were solemn and uncommunicative at the different panels and Q&A's they've visited?

When we present at these panels, there is laughter, wonder and much interesting information shared. It's my stock in trade, since the Bible is the most exciting book written - on an emotional level - and there is no excuse for a boring Bible study of any kind.
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27-11-2013, 02:28 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 02:17 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 02:01 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  Who does time out for 45 minutes?
We never have time out somewhere that the kids play. Time out is in the time out chair in the same room as me. One minute for each year, so 4 minutes for my son and 5 minutes for my daughter. I think beyond 5 years old time out is useless so we won't be doing it too much longer. Time out is A) time for a child to regain their composure and/or B) time that the child is not allowed to play or do whatever they were wanting to do. I have never told my kids I don't want them around or to get away from me. I don't have any problem dealing with a crying child or having a long talk with my kids. It doesn't frustrate me to take time out of my day to make sure my kids understand why certain behavior is more desirable. I want my kids to do the right thing because they know why it is right, not because they are afraid of me or because they have been conditioned to do whatever I say. I have never been in a situation where I thought that spanking them would help them understand what is right and what is wrong and why. Spanking a child teaches them that their parents will hurt them when the make mistakes. I teach my kids that it is okay and normal to make mistakes and the most important thing is to admit their mistakes and learn from them.

I affirm much of what you wrote. I disagree with your comment, "Spanking a child teaches them that their parents will hurt them when they make mistakes." That is categorically unfair and rather untrue:

*Spanking is a consequence of doing wrong, not of making a mistake or doing something to merely irritate someone

*Hopefully your kids respond--a spanking often changes a child's behavior to the positive for hours or days--time outs might need to happen over and again

*Spanking is about consequences--how is time out teaching them it's wrong to push a child down until the child cries and bleeds from scraping themselves on the driveway? What would you do if a ten-year-old stole a $50 toy and then when caught, threw it to the ground and broke it? Pay the $50, fill out the police forms and then take the child home and say, "No TV or playing for ten minutes since you're ten years old?"

My children don't need to be punished for this type of behavior, because they have been taught from a young age that it is not acceptable. What kind of child pushes another kid down until they bleed? My kids have never done that. From about 18 months to 2 years I have consistently talked to them about how important it is to take care of those who are smaller and/or weaker than us. I don't have any experience with 10 year olds or stealing so I'm not sure on that one, but I can tell you spanking is off the list of possibilities and so is time out which I already said I think is inapropriate after 5 years old. Even if someone chooses to spank I can't imagine spanking a 10 year old. Older than 4 or 5 it starts to seem ridiculous. My dad spanked me once after the age of 8, I was 13 and it was really weird. I think he was as embarrassed as I was. We never talked about it and it never happened again.
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27-11-2013, 02:29 PM
RE: To train up a child
(27-11-2013 02:15 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(27-11-2013 02:06 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Have you shared these thoughts with KC, who spanks his son? He's a mod here. Did you tell him he is an abuser?

You're not getting it yet. You can move Earth not Heaven to not spank now, and there will be consequences for the child and for you down the road.

Where is your evidence that the parents and children from every non-spanking family in the world suffers consequences?
KC knows how to read so I'm sure he has gotten the gist if my opinion. I think spanking a child is stupid and lazy but I won't call someone who does the occasional one or two swats an abuser. KC himself said he doesn't advocate the book and he thinks your method of 30 to 40 swats excessive. I will take it a step further to say it is blatant disgusting child abuse.
I don't know KC and I don't know where he lives, but if using an implement is illegal where he lives then yes it is legally child abuse.

I hope your children decide not to continue the abuse onto your grandchildren. As people are paying more and more attention and seeing more and more cases where children are dying, more people are stepping up and reporting abusers. I am sure you don't want to be bailing one of your kids out of jail on child abuse charges.

KC himself said he will read the book and then respond. Have you read the book in its entirety?

The evidence is in the people I meet and talk to daily, Christians and others. The world has many polite, mature, non-spanked as children atheists. The world has many kids from otherwise Christian homes who are hellions and lost without a compass, and it turns out that all those without a severe mental issue were not what as a child?

You guessed right if you guessed "disciplined".

The Bible is true. Instead of taunting with "where's your evidence" why not get some evidence for yourself?
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