To train up a child
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20-11-2013, 11:42 AM
RE: To train up a child
You can't talk your way out of certain things unless you are talking to like-minded people who buy into the same BS.

I would like to think he wasn't/isn't abusive to his children but it's his word against...oh wait, it's only his word backed by God said.

We cannot determine one way or another if what he says is true. I'd need to hear it from his children.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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20-11-2013, 11:44 AM
RE: To train up a child
Her can rationalize it anyway he wants. His children probably tell a different story or will when they're older.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

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20-11-2013, 11:52 AM
RE: To train up a child
(19-11-2013 02:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  They and I have obedient, believing, confident, secure, wise, intelligent, respectful, accomplished children.
I'm not sure how this thread became all about PleaseJesus. It seems he is just one of many Christians whom think the "To Train up a child" book is useful parenting advice.

Parenting is difficult at the best of times, there is no single best way to parent children and sometimes only a great deal of time will show whether we did the "right" thing or not.

It seems to me that PleaseJesus values "obedient, believing" very highly, these are the first two on his list.

Personally I don't value these two things at all.
My goal as a parent is to give my children the tools to live their own lives. That means teaching them critical thinking, how to research, how to be wary of deciept, to not be afraid of failure, to be confident in making their own decisions, to be themselves, to have fun, to think about their future.

Instead of beating them with a pipe to incite unquestioning obedience, I lie to my children so that they learn to question what I say, they learn to evaluate what I say. If they second guess me, then I am a happy man.

When they fail at something, I ask them to try again. They often do this to me now. "That's alright daddy, just try again"

But we are all different, no doubt many people will say I am "bad" for lying to my kids...
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20-11-2013, 12:14 PM
RE: To train up a child
I'd really like to "train up" a couple of authors and a few parents. Angry

(19-11-2013 02:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I read the book twice, and if you want to know 1) what it says since these are not straight quotes you have above (going from memory) or 2) what it means in context, ask me.
1) You read the book twice... TWICE? Shame on you!
2) There is no context that makes their methods acceptable. None!

(19-11-2013 02:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  My children show every evidence of having NOT been abused. I do pretty much everything the Pearls do and did, and my children are not abused.
If you really do everything that the Pearls do, then first off that's low even for you - low enough to make you a complete piece of shit. And, if so, you wouldn't likely recognize the evidence that MUST be there of your children being abused.

(19-11-2013 02:43 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You can choose to pick on me re: the book or actually ask someone who puts their principles to practice and find out some stuff. You choose.
Such as countless ways to abuse kids? No fucking thanks! Dodgy

(19-11-2013 02:38 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I listened, and took notes. They and I have obedient, believing, confident, secure, wise, intelligent, respectful, accomplished children.

The converse is true--many angry and vile people I've known were not disciplined as children just as the Bible predicts--the rod and reproof give wisdom both.
This is total BS! Abuse never brings confident, secure, well-adjusted children. Furthermore, if you have really been abusing your kids, they will likely grow up and abuse their kids too. Nice going! I regularly get compliments from teachers and other parents about how well behaved and mature my kids are and I have never hit them even once. Not once. Hitting of any kind is definitely unnecessary. From everything I know and have experienced, I also strongly believe it's actually counterproductive.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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20-11-2013, 12:33 PM
RE: To train up a child
Well, now, I am encouraged. I wish I had brought up this subject months ago--I think a solid bit of evidence for God's existence--the Judeo-Christian God--is how one might apply the biblical framework for child raising and raise little angels instead of little devils, or--if you don't mind my frankness, little atheists.

I do appreciate the person who wrote to say they were in counseling and working through some of the issues of the past from this sort of idea--I sincerely hope my words here will help them to understand and figure whether her parents were abusive or not—that is an obvious, important distinction.

BB, I mistyped if I said my daughter was starting at Yale--she applied to Yale and rocked her interview--she has a community college degree and decided to be a junior elsewhere--Yale would have started her again as a freshman and dropped over 60 credits...

I'll clarify, too, since this is a thread about the Pearls's book--I've bought copies of the book and given them to others--I apply many of their techniques but not to the degree to which they do--they are WAY beyond what many or most Christians do.

First again, do take personal stock, folks. I'm most surprised that some of you react so strongly to this concept of withholding food. Really? None of you had atheist parents who when you refused to eat the hot dog mom made for dinner, said, "Sit there and eat it and learn some respect--people are starving in Africa" or even "This goes in the fridge now and in the microwave for you in an hour when you're really hungry, our home is not a restaurant and we're all eating hot dogs tonight…"?

Really? None of you had parents that did stuff like that? Mine did--they weren't born again, either. Again, the Pearls go further to serving the hot dogs the next day for breakfast, but...

**

So, let's start with very young child "training". TRAINING, not discipline or punishment. I think the Pearls say six months, but again...

Moving on, my real life story. You can read it and decide whether I should be executed and flogged like Christ (reverse that order) or merely imprisoned, okay? Of course, your mocking and cursing me is like always, free of cost here at The Thinking Atheist (mind you, I have high hopes of this site changing its name to a plural one soon—just kidding)!

**

My son is eleven months old. He can't communicate much verbally but he can crawl and walk some. Back in the day, we have a VCR underneath the living room TV on the carpeted floor. He likes the flashing lights, the noises, the warmth. He crawls toward it. Our ideal moment to begin training! We can move the electrical equipment higher or use an opportunity or both?

Mom and I say, "No touch" with a bright, pleasant voice. Think Barbara Woodhouse saying "walkies!" No touch! No touch, son! Happy, soft, bright, not angry or abusive.

My boy regards us for a moment as we are near him and he is near the VCR. Wheels turn in his head. He reaches out to touch the VCR then hesitates. "No touch!" we say with a smile. He touches. We kill him! No...! Just foolin’ round with you people.

Here's what we did back then...

We take his tiny 11-year old precious hand gently in one of our hands. With the other we flick the soft skin that webs between his thumb and forefinger. Like the way you flick an "okay" sign made with a thumb and one finger on your hand, like you're propelling a marble--only far gentler.

He shouts in pain!  No, it wasn't nearly enough to cause discomfort. It's merely a stimulus.

We say no touch, he reaches for the VCR again and we flick again. No touch! Walkies!

Do you know what an 11-month-old can do mentally? A LOT. He looks at us silently, he looks at the VCR. He is both a Pavlovian child being trained and he's at the same trying to TEST US. Will the big people flick me if I reach out again after they say no? Should I or shouldn’t I? “I’m pretty powerful. I poop my pants or burp and they come running. Can I master them and this environment? Am I subject to rule of law?”

Maybe I’m exaggerating a little here but since it takes a Cray weeks to do what a human can cogitate in seconds…

…All this takes about 30 seconds. Three touches or attempts and flicks. About a day or two later, there's two touches and two more flicks.

**
Result of one minute of training an infant:

Other than the obvious like hiding household poisons, cleaning solvents and medicines, we didn't really need to childproof our house much. We could say "No touch" gently to my son until he was 5 (?) or whatever age was too old for that phrase. We could go to a friend's home, one without small children, who had glassware everywhere and precious collectibles and snacks on the table, look at our child reach out or look and say "no touch" and that's it. No discipline, no threats, no harsh words. Just no touch and he’d find something else to amuse himself or come to us to do something else more fun...

Just as important--and I apologize for jumping ahead in my story--we could say "Stop" to our children while they walked and they--stopped. Several times they were saved from stepping in front of cars and other vehicles when we were carrying groceries or whatever.

Training a child isn't for everyone at every level--but it can be a matter of life or death.

We've just begun my real life stories so now you can flame me, affirm me or question me, and I can decide whether I ought to continue my real life stories or just “disappear” like I’m accused of when I actually take more than 12 hours to sleep and shower before replying to you!

For people who say they want an atheist-only forum, you sure do seem to love my posts.
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20-11-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: To train up a child
The martyr act is getting old.

PJ, here's a quick lesson in communication:
"Hi everyone. I actually used this book's methods on my children. I know they're controversial; before you jump to conclusions (which is understandable considering the subject matter), here's what I didn't do... and here's what I did do, methods I found to be successful."

You ain't dumb. You knew that if you said you used this controversial book's methods and didn't specify which methods you used, you'd get backlash... after which you could cry out about how you've been picked on. Sadcryface2

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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20-11-2013, 12:44 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  ...instead of little devils, or--if you don't mind my frankness, little atheists.
That's funny

(20-11-2013 12:33 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'll clarify, too, since this is a thread about the Pearls's book--I've bought copies of the book and given them to others
I can only imagine the conversations the parents have had once all the guests go home.
"Oh my god - Frank, this book, it's telling me to hit little babbies"
"Who gave us that?"
"PJ, I think"
"Really, He seems so placid"
"Well, we never know what goes on in his house"
"His kids seem OK"
"Hmm, they seem to wear sunglasses alot"
"Noooo, you think they are hiding bruises?"
"You never know, poor kids"
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20-11-2013, 12:54 PM
RE: To train up a child
http://homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress....-disaster/

Interesting view from a child who grew up with this discipline

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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20-11-2013, 01:03 PM
RE: To train up a child
Pj - there is a difference between sending a child to be without dinner, and not giving food for 24 hours.

That's not demanding respect. That's not breaking a will. That's cruelty. That's trying to rein control over something that is entirely out of your control. You can't control your child's intake or refusal of food and you can't control his bowels. They will potty train only when they decide they are ready and not a second before.

It is cruel to force your child to do - what I consider - the equivalent of forcing your child to sit in the own feces as punishment for not going on the potty or going on your timetable. That's dangerous. It can lead to rash and infection.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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20-11-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: To train up a child
(20-11-2013 11:44 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  Her can rationalize it anyway he wants. His children probably tell a different story or will when they're older.

I take it you don't really read my posts. My children are a junior in college and a sophomore in high school. They are very loving and affectionate.
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