Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
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16-11-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
(16-11-2012 03:57 PM)onedream Wrote:  Good morning, my son.

I like your mum.

It's a lovely note. Shows a willingness to debate and not to judge.

Much better than... You're going to burn in HELL!

(16-11-2012 03:57 PM)onedream Wrote:  i...
If the realm of the spiritual exists at all, then we have to accept that the essence of it is not entirely accessible by just our intellects.
It must make sense to us (that’s necessary)
...

No. It is not even necessary.

If it existed at all, why would a spirit give a shit whether a human could make sense of it.

It is the fundamental flaw in theistic thinking... that the universe revolves around them.

Deists are on much safer ground when discussing a spiritual realm.

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16-11-2012, 07:45 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
(16-11-2012 05:31 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  ...Anyway, she is right, our intellect is insufficient to explain our universe, and whether or not there even exists a metaphysical realm, but I require some sort of evidence. If it is just likely to be untrue as it is likely to be true, then I see no reason to have faith in it, but what Christianity requires goes far beyond those odds; it is incalculable.
This. And I think that's where some people I have talked to would start talking about Pascal's wager, and say you might as well believe in it, as if you can just choose to believe.

I don't think anyone chooses to believe or not. I don't believe in woo, because I haven't seen evidence. That's the reasonable thing to do, IMO.

I think Christians (and other people with "faith") didn't simply choose to believe. I think they [mis]interpret things as "evidence," and that makes them think belief is correct. On the other hand, atheists may witness the same things, have the same feelings, dreams, whatever, and not interpret them as supernatural.

I had a relative go on and on to me about I need to "take a leap of faith." Why? Because she believes I am wrong and should believe what she does. I imagine many Muslims would think I'm wrong too, but they would think I should believe in Allah and follow the teachings of Muhammed. To me, both views are equally lacking in evidence, so I'm not a Christian or a Muslim.

To summarize, I completely disagree that intelligent people who see no evidence for God simply "choose to have faith." I think those who want their religion to be true will misinterpret reality to fit their preconceived notions and this makes them believe their religion is true, causing them to think the rest of us are either dead wrong or blind or "weak" in our faith.
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16-11-2012, 11:48 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
(16-11-2012 07:05 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(16-11-2012 05:31 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  Interesting that she chose Kierkegaard, he was a bitch if you ask me, but that isn't my point. Kierkegaard was always at odds with the church in his final years, and really hated them (though he remained religious is some sense). I suppose he felt what Luther must've felt like. Anyway, she is right, our intellect is insufficient to explain our universe, and whether or not there even exists a metaphysical realm, but I require some sort of evidence. If it is just likely to be untrue as it is likely to be true, then I see no reason to have faith in it, but what Christianity requires goes far beyond those odds; it is incalculable. That is just my opinion, and viewpoint. Good luck on your decision, but remember, it is not final. Your views will likely change as you age and gain experience and knowledge; it is not as if your conclusions are writ in stone, they are malleable.

Actually we don't know if our intellect is sufficient or insufficient to understand the universe. I believe we are intellectually sufficient, we just have insufficient data at this time.
Bah I say! Bah! Either the Universe has been here forever (which is illogical), or it came from nothing (which is illogical). Our brain works using logic, but it fails us. Don't give me the bullshit about things coming from nothing because that is a farce. It has been shown that matter can pop into existence from energy, but energy is certainly not nothing.

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17-11-2012, 12:32 AM
Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
(16-11-2012 11:48 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(16-11-2012 07:05 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Actually we don't know if our intellect is sufficient or insufficient to understand the universe. I believe we are intellectually sufficient, we just have insufficient data at this time.
Bah I say! Bah! Either the Universe has been here forever (which is illogical), or it came from nothing (which is illogical). Our brain works using logic, but it fails us. Don't give me the bullshit about things coming from nothing because that is a farce. It has been shown that matter can pop into existence from energy, but energy is certainly not nothing.

Bah? Don't say that around Muffsy. Problem is, he's got a little bit a Mississippi leg hound in 'im.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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17-11-2012, 03:56 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
(17-11-2012 12:32 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Bah? Don't say that around Muffsy. Problem is, he's got a little bit a Mississippi leg hound in 'im.
Humbug then!

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17-11-2012, 04:12 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
(17-11-2012 12:32 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Problem is, he's got a little bit a Mississippi leg hound in 'im.
One of our favorite movies of all time. And the season for watching it again is almost upon us.....

"SQUIRRELLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!"

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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17-11-2012, 04:21 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
Your Mom seems very nice - lovingly persuasive without the heavy hand. But her arguments are flawed.
(16-11-2012 03:57 PM)onedream Wrote:  By definition,
man’s intellect is necessary, but it is not sufficient. If the realm of
the spiritual exists at all, then we have to accept that the essence of
it is not entirely accessible by just our intellects. It must make sense
to us (that’s necessary) but we will never be able to either fully
understand or justify it only on the basis of intellect.

Even if we buy that, this conclusion doesn't follow:
Quote:So the
first assumption we have to make is whether the spiritual exists at all,
but the intellect is not capable of grasping that!
There is a big difference between fully understanding the essence of the spiritual and merely understanding whether it exists. If, for example, ghosts were real, then it really wouldn't be very difficult to know that the spiritual exists at some level. That doesn't mean we would fully understand ghosts.


I also disagree with this:
Quote:No matter how you
come at it, in the end a person’s WILL is central – Faith would not be
faith if it were “prove-able.” There is always an element of choice.

I don't think anyone can choose to have faith or to not have faith. The only choice we have is whether to learn all we can about various faiths and the arguments for and against their being truth. After that, belief or non-belief really just happens.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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17-11-2012, 04:32 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
Great responses, everyone.

And I agree with most of them.

My initial reaction to her argument that our intellects are not sufficient is to ask "Then why would God hold anyone accountable for not believing in him if he created our minds in a way that prevents us from understanding him?"

God creates man with inferior mind that can't grasp him.

Man rejects God because his mind (created by God so it can't understand God) is imperfect.

God condemns man for rejecting him.

God is a big ass hole for creating a person incapable of grasping the concept of God and then condemning the creation for it.
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17-11-2012, 05:34 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
God's a bit of an asshole whichever way you slice it, if you're going by the Christian god with heaven and hell. Any god that creates a hell is inexcusably, undeniably, evil.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
It works, bitches.
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17-11-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: Told my family that I'm re-considering faith.
I'm rather proud of your mom, onedream. Most mothers (like mine) tend to indulge in emotional blackmail, but your mother's message was neither an emotional appeal nor irrational. You have a cool mom.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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