Tolerance
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08-07-2014, 07:22 AM
Tolerance
Many of you in your arguments against theists will often come up against the apologetic of "Why can we not all just have our own beliefs?"

The easiest way to explain why we do what we do is because beliefs inform actions, and when those beliefs are not based on truth, or rather, they are based on faith, they can cause people to act in a way that is harmful around them.

What then is the limit when explaining to people why their beliefs are unwarranted?

I have many friends who are secular who tell me "Their beliefs are not harming you, the religious are not harming the irreligious."

One night, I became infuriated with my secular friends inability to see the evidence I was throwing at him, explaining the need to verbally brutalize the beliefs of theists. I told him the reasons, and he replied "I also have the ability to realize talking about certain private things is 'aspy' and makes people hate you."


How do we deal with this? We have religious against us, and we have people in our community who are against us challenging the religious.

I am tired of this.
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08-07-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: Tolerance
(08-07-2014 07:22 AM)thesleepingatheist Wrote:  Many of you in your arguments against theists will often come up against the apologetic of "Why can we not all just have our own beliefs?"

The easiest way to explain why we do what we do is because beliefs inform actions, and when those beliefs are not based on truth, or rather, they are based on faith, they can cause people to act in a way that is harmful around them.

What then is the limit when explaining to people why their beliefs are unwarranted?

I have many friends who are secular who tell me "Their beliefs are not harming you, the religious are not harming the irreligious."

One night, I became infuriated with my secular friends inability to see the evidence I was throwing at him, explaining the need to verbally brutalize the beliefs of theists. I told him the reasons, and he replied "I also have the ability to realize talking about certain private things is 'aspy' and makes people hate you."


How do we deal with this? We have religious against us, and we have people in our community who are against us challenging the religious.

I am tired of this.

Case by case... use judgement. The little old lady who gets all her socialization in church is not harmful and is going to die soon enough and confronting her would be nothing short of cruel.

The preacher at the street corner is harmful, spreading a "disease".

Just use your "moral compass".

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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08-07-2014, 07:58 AM
RE: Tolerance
(08-07-2014 07:22 AM)thesleepingatheist Wrote:  I have many friends who are secular who tell me "Their beliefs are not harming you, the religious are not harming the irreligious."

Your friends need to get out more.

Inform them of the countries where being an atheist is literally illegal, remind them of this little thing called "gay people", be historical and point out that the Bible was used to justify slavery, and many more. I know the "they're not all like that" card will be played, but, um, 9/11, HELLO!

Point out that they don't even just hurt the irreligious; they hurt THEMSELVES. Kids dying from lack of medical care, or just plain being beaten to death, any of the many, many reasons you can be killed in countries with religion heavy governments, those morons who get killed because they're handling poisonous snakes because the Bible tells them they can, etc. Tell your friends to look up "To Train Up a Child".

How about the psychological pain of being a little kid told you will burn in agony for ever if you want your school mate's new notebook, or get stuck with the lame ice pop and want your sibling's? How about being forced to do something with your life when you don't want to do it? How about giving up the entirety of your one life to serve an imaginary friend?

This, to me, sounds like more than enough to condemn this viewpoint. We give delusions that do much less damage less of a pass than this.
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08-07-2014, 08:07 AM
RE: Tolerance
You can mention how religion has always impeded scientific and technological progress. Even today, people ignorantly speak against stem cell research, which shows great promise.

Also, you can mention how religious people take it on themselves to dictate what a woman may or may not do with her body.

The big issue with gay people was mentioned. Religious people are generally intolerant.

Also, refer to how religion is the seed of enmity between different groups of religious and therefore often ignites wars and conflicts.

Then there are of course all the historical crap that happened, but they may stupidly refuse to accept it by saying "if not for religion, there would have been wars for other causes"

Oh, and a lot of parties worldwide win their votes by appealing to religion. Which means that democracy is not functioning properly due to religion.

And religion prevents people from learning, because education often contradicts religion.

And there is so much more... like condoms and AIDS in Africa. People starving in Somali because they think fish is prohibited. Laws based on religion which are clearly detrimental to society. Wow, there is so much.

But what bothers me the most is that religion always impedes progress, because with progress religion loses its grip on humanity.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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08-07-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: Tolerance
(08-07-2014 07:58 AM)CleverUsername Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 07:22 AM)thesleepingatheist Wrote:  I have many friends who are secular who tell me "Their beliefs are not harming you, the religious are not harming the irreligious."

Your friends need to get out more.

Inform them of the countries where being an atheist is literally illegal, remind them of this little thing called "gay people", be historical and point out that the Bible was used to justify slavery, and many more. I know the "they're not all like that" card will be played, but, um, 9/11, HELLO!

Point out that they don't even just hurt the irreligious; they hurt THEMSELVES. Kids dying from lack of medical care, or just plain being beaten to death, any of the many, many reasons you can be killed in countries with religion heavy governments, those morons who get killed because they're handling poisonous snakes because the Bible tells them they can, etc. Tell your friends to look up "To Train Up a Child".

How about the psychological pain of being a little kid told you will burn in agony for ever if you want your school mate's new notebook, or get stuck with the lame ice pop and want your sibling's? How about being forced to do something with your life when you don't want to do it? How about giving up the entirety of your one life to serve an imaginary friend?

This, to me, sounds like more than enough to condemn this viewpoint. We give delusions that do much less damage less of a pass than this.

I think it is less that he is in need of getting out in public, and more because he is afraid to offend people. He is afraid of him losing his social standing, after all, atheists are literally as hated and mistrusted as rapists (see the recent study on American perception of various social minorities.)
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08-07-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Tolerance
If you feel strongly about religion, *you* be an activist. Other people do whatever they want, it's their choice.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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08-07-2014, 09:02 AM
RE: Tolerance
Its all about picking your battles really.

Most of the christians in your current community are ignorant and harmless for the most part, so worrying about them on a day to day basis is really a waste of time and energy.

What I personally am interested in is the political aspect of the situation. How is it affecting politics? Separation of church and state etc. Talk to your christian friends as friends, not as "the enemy" No one wants to listen to a hard ass belittle them. If you just -have- to be firm, be classy (Hitchslap style) But good luck, thats not easy.

Also you personally might feel better if you join a real life group. I'm pretty active in a community of CFI locally, it really is very satisfying to be around people of common thoughts and interests, and work on projects and goals that do some good.

That being said I totally agree that religion is a terrible and hostile thing, it makes good people do stupid and sometimes horrible shit. Just be patient with your friend. Perhaps one of these days something will make him passionate enough to step out of his box.
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08-07-2014, 09:52 AM
RE: Tolerance
(08-07-2014 07:31 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(08-07-2014 07:22 AM)thesleepingatheist Wrote:  Many of you in your arguments against theists will often come up against the apologetic of "Why can we not all just have our own beliefs?"

The easiest way to explain why we do what we do is because beliefs inform actions, and when those beliefs are not based on truth, or rather, they are based on faith, they can cause people to act in a way that is harmful around them.

What then is the limit when explaining to people why their beliefs are unwarranted?

I have many friends who are secular who tell me "Their beliefs are not harming you, the religious are not harming the irreligious."

One night, I became infuriated with my secular friends inability to see the evidence I was throwing at him, explaining the need to verbally brutalize the beliefs of theists. I told him the reasons, and he replied "I also have the ability to realize talking about certain private things is 'aspy' and makes people hate you."


How do we deal with this? We have religious against us, and we have people in our community who are against us challenging the religious.

I am tired of this.

Case by case... use judgement. The little old lady who gets all her socialization in church is not harmful and is going to die soon enough and confronting her would be nothing short of cruel.

The preacher at the street corner is harmful, spreading a "disease".

Just use your "moral compass".

Can t answer any better than this

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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08-07-2014, 11:48 AM
RE: Tolerance
I think all you can do is respect them as people even if you refuse to respect their beliefs. Christianity, as an ideology, political doctrine, institution, and religion deserves no respect. People, however, do. Try to be understanding of their feelings. Try not to confront them on a personal level but on an intellectual one. Try to treat them as if they are intelligent, and rational, and good willed - the vast majority of them are.

Arguing about religion will not win you any friends. People will always interpret what you say about their faith as a personal attack on them. But that is not your problem, that is their problem. That is not to say you should confront each and ever person you meet and force them into a conversation about their faith. There is such a thing as good tact. Part of treating people with respect is knowing when it is appropriate and warranted to engage them. However, once so engaged, don't carry the burden of responsibility for their sensibilities on you. If you are treating them as a good person whilst attacking their beliefs you are doing everything you can do to be respectful to them, honest, and most important, true to yourself.

Best of luck. Welcome to the forums Smile .
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08-07-2014, 11:58 AM
RE: Tolerance
People before me in this thread pretty much covered the bases. One more thing I would add is this essentially amounts to "leave me alone, I can believe whatever I want to believe". And that brings up the missionaries. Missionaries don't leave people alone and I wonder why I never hear people from those religions complaining that their missionaries should leave people alone to believe whatever they want to believe. Consider

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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