Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
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01-08-2017, 12:57 PM
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 11:36 AM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  I give up, who?

your the one who said
Quote:Yes, some people should die or go bankrupt.


Quote:If this concept of yours is so good then why are we limiting taxpayer funded care to just those people in the US. Why don't we cover healthcare for all of the world

why limit tax payer funding to only a nations own citizens? very simple actually, its not practical and nations doesn't spend money on foreign nations unless its in its own interest. Unless every nation pitches in its impossible to finance providing healthcare to every person on this planet

Quote:Oh...limits. And someone will get left out. Such is life.
should they be left out of getting healthcare?

Quote:And there, again, we could discuss limits. A free market does not mean there can be no sensible regulation...within limits.

taxation limits? a progressive tax where the highest tax rate falls on the top income earners so that money is redistributed to the middle and working class

Quote:You seem to fail to realize that people weren't laying in the streets dying before this nannystate system was implemented.

you seem to fail to realize there were people couldn't afford healthcare before this nannystate system was implemented.

Quote:I don't know anyone who doesn't believe in a help system to assist people in need. There is nothing wrong with a hand up (versus a never ending hand out).

[Image: product.jpg]
peoples hourly wages haven't kept up with productivity while inflation eats up their income so unless wages are raised people won't be able to afford many things meaning they'll have to turn to govt assistance programs
These programs were originally a safety net to help people who fallen on hard times or are unable to work due to a disability or old age or are very poor

Quote:What I oppose is a systematic redistribution of wealth simply because your kind has decided that healthcare is a right. One you clearly limit to US Citizens.

I'm limiting it to US citizens is because every other industrialized nation has one form of universal healthcare or another where citizens have access to healthcare as a right
Also those nations have cost controls implemented so they pay less whereas in the US only the VA can negotiate lower prices on behalf of beneficiaries

The more one asserts their own unquestioned preconceived beliefs, the more demanding I will be for empirical evidence for I will accept nothing else in place of it
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01-08-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 12:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(31-07-2017 08:40 PM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  The end result is that the same way people in Canada have come to the US to get services they would have to wait months for at home...people are already going to Mexico to get.

I hear that a lot but this is purely anecdotal without citations. Got refs?

For which part? Canadians coming to the US?
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countri...ealth-care

Or Americans going to Mexico?
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Am...82601.html
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01-08-2017, 01:12 PM
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 12:50 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 12:25 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Those must be some awfully rich Canadians that can afford the astronomical cost of US health care without insurance coverage.

It did happenned and still happen for minor surgeries (mosly for knee surgeries). Around 50 000 Canadian visited the United States for this purpose each year. Canadian citizens can buy american health insurrence for those surgeries. It uses to be more common in the early 2000's when the US dollar was weaker and the Canadian healthcare system was suffering of backlog problems that have been reduced (but not elliminated) since then by a higher retention of medical personnel and better management. Note that the opposite is also true with Americans going to Canada to receive much cheaper prescription drugs and for surgery that requires long stay in hospitals (thus much too pricy in the US). Around 750 000 US citizen travelled to other countries (including Canada and Mexico, but also Europe) for the same purpose and around 2 million of them bought prescription drugs from Canada, sometime illegaly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_to...ted_States

Not a scientific source, but gives a good outlook on this situation.

Hmmm... I didn't know that, and it is interesting -- but still a bit of a head-scratcher, especially this part: "Canadian citizens can buy American health insurance for those surgeries." Doesn't that violate the basic principle of insurance, to buy it for a single specific procedure? Isn't this a "pre-existing condition" with a vengeance?
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01-08-2017, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2017 01:20 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 01:00 PM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 12:15 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I hear that a lot but this is purely anecdotal without citations. Got refs?

For which part? Canadians coming to the US?
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countri...ealth-care

Okay, that's got some numbers. So around 50,000 Canadians/year in a population of some 36,000,000. So around 0.14% of population.


(01-08-2017 01:00 PM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  Or Americans going to Mexico?
http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/Am...82601.html

That one's got no numbers. Just more anecdotes. This one says from 150,000 to 320,000 American medical tourists going abroad in a population of 323,000,000. So around 0.1% of population. I'm not sure what you think can be concluded from these numbers, but I am sure they are not significant enough to have an impact on any market. Also, even the high estimate of 320,000 is less than half of what it was pre-ACA.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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01-08-2017, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2017 01:29 PM by Hitcher70.)
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 12:57 PM)Ace Wrote:  why limit tax payer funding to only a nations own citizens? very simple actually, its not practical and nations doesn't spend money on foreign nations unless its in its own interest. Unless every nation pitches in its impossible to finance providing healthcare to every person on this planet

So it's no affinity for humanity that you have which makes healthcare a right. It's simply that you find it feasible and draw the limit where you like it, at the border. Well, I don't find it feasible at all. Different limit. Same reasoning.

Quote:
Quote:Oh...limits. And someone will get left out. Such is life.
should they be left out of getting healthcare?

According to you...YES. You don't care about them if they aren't a US Citizen. I guess your position isn't a human ethics one about a right to healthcare after all.

Quote:
Quote:And there, again, we could discuss limits. A free market does not mean there can be no sensible regulation...within limits.

taxation limits? a progressive tax where the highest tax rate falls on the top income earners so that money is redistributed to the middle and working class

In what decade were we brainwashed into thinking that this is ok? If you and I cross a state tax/toll bridge and they say I get to go for $1 because I'm poorer than you and you have to pay $10 because you are a "top income earner"...could you see the problem then?

Quote:
Quote:You seem to fail to realize that people weren't laying in the streets dying before this nannystate system was implemented.
Quote:you seem to fail to realize there were people couldn't afford healthcare before this nannystate system was implemented.
And the solution to what was going on between the growth of health insurance and now isn't more nannystate insurance.

Quote:
Quote:I don't know anyone who doesn't believe in a help system to assist people in need. There is nothing wrong with a hand up (versus a never ending hand out).

[Image: product.jpg]
peoples hourly wages haven't kept up with productivity while inflation eats up their income so unless wages are raised people won't be able to afford many things meaning they'll have to turn to govt assistance programs
These programs were originally a safety net to help people who fallen on hard times or are unable to work due to a disability or old age or are very poor [/quote][/quote]

I'm not sure why you think redistribution by the federal government is a solution to this.

Quote:
Quote:What I oppose is a systematic redistribution of wealth simply because your kind has decided that healthcare is a right. One you clearly limit to US Citizens.

I'm limiting it to US citizens is because every other industrialized nation has one form of universal healthcare or another where citizens have access to healthcare as a right
Also those nations have cost controls implemented so they pay less whereas in the US only the VA can negotiate lower prices on behalf of beneficiaries
[/quote]

But what about all of the 3rd world countries. They have people too. Where is their right to free healthcare? It seems awfully unethical of you to just not care. Do you want some of them to die or go bankrupt? Rolleyes

Yes, those industrialized nations do have cost controls. They own the university. They own the hospital. They own the doctor. And they also own the reason for the disincentive to even go into healthcare, the shortage that's causing, the exodus that's causing among providers and the incredible wait times to get procedures done. Universal healthcare and single payor systems are not the panacea. Not even in those homogeneous societies where the overwhelming majority of people want to work rather than sit at home and demand their "rights".
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01-08-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 01:19 PM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  But what about all of the 3rd world countries. They have people too. Where is their right to free healthcare? It seems awfully unethical of you to just not care. Do you want some of them to die or go bankrupt? Rolleyes

Can you name 3rd world countries not having socialized healthcare? India, citizens have a right to free healthcare, China, 95 percent under state provided health insurance, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cuba, Kenia, Syria before the civil war ...

I looked them all up, since I didn't know the answer myself. Can't look up all of them, so maybe you clarify which country you had in mind not having universal healthcare.

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01-08-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 11:15 AM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 10:52 AM)evenheathen Wrote:  Just an observation of priorities is all.

Considering that I don't agree that it would be ok to do that, your observation of my priorities is clearly false. Misrepresenting my position and attacking me personally instead of discussing the limits of taxation seems to be a common method of debate in here.

Oh sorry. No attack on you, observing the priorities of our government and those who refuse to see the hypocrisy.
If you're not one of them then good for you.

Carry on.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

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01-08-2017, 01:41 PM
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 01:34 PM)abaris Wrote:  
(01-08-2017 01:19 PM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  But what about all of the 3rd world countries. They have people too. Where is their right to free healthcare? It seems awfully unethical of you to just not care. Do you want some of them to die or go bankrupt? Rolleyes

Can you name 3rd world countries not having socialized healthcare? India, citizens have a right to free healthcare, China, 95 percent under state provided health insurance, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cuba, Kenia, Syria before the civil war ...

I looked them all up, since I didn't know the answer myself. Can't look up all of them, so maybe you clarify which country you had in mind not having universal healthcare.

I'm not your research assistant. The premise still stand regarding the right to healthcare that you should be providing to those who don't have it.

https://www.quora.com/What-countries-don...re-and-why
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01-08-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 01:41 PM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  I'm not your research assistant.

You made the claim. I looked if it had merit. It doesn't, in most cases. So, on what did you base that claim of yours? That map doesn't cover them all, since many have private insurance that still covers all according to their constitution. Such as India.

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01-08-2017, 01:46 PM (This post was last modified: 01-08-2017 01:49 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Tomi Lahren Admits She Benefits From Obamacare, Still Wants To Nix It
(01-08-2017 01:19 PM)Hitcher70 Wrote:  And they also own the reason for the disincentive to even go into healthcare, the shortage that's causing, the exodus that's causing among providers and the incredible wait times to get procedures done.

What exodus? Physician Numbers Up Under Obamacare

What incredible wait times? The average time to an appointment with a US family practice in 2009 was 20 days; today, it is 19.5 days.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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