Torn
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
23-08-2011, 10:10 AM
Torn
Hi y'all,

A few days back I came across a mate that I worked with a few years ago. He's loving gentle bloke on the outset but the recent encounter came with an unforeseen consequences. Apparently he is a very devout Muslim. I commented on one of the videos that he posted on facebook in which a person was talking about the glory of Islam and how science supports the extraordinary claims of the Muslim holy book, Al Quran, specifically on the subject of astronomy. The video claims that the Quran has predicted the shape of the earth as well as the planet's revolution and what not. Since I was slightly drunk at the time, I replied to his post saying that the greeks have found that out ages before and insinuate that the Quran got its facts from other civilization and cultures.

The very next day he sent me a message. Not offensive, very civilized, but still, he boasted about Islam and sent me another link to yet another video of a group of scientists who support the scientific claims supposedly written within Quran. Being as sober as a dog out of a washing machine, I replied yet again. And this has been going on for days now. We managed to keep the discussion civil so far, but I can't help but feel that I've done much damage and this is my first time debating a believer (and a Muslim to boot). I keep wondering if this will have a lasting impact to our working relationship and would like to know your opinion whether I should keep the discussion or not.

I would also like to point out that today he sent me another long 3000 word rebuttal and claims that I, surprisingly, found to be very easy to refute and debunk. The level of misinformation is quite staggering. I mean, where should I start? He said that creationism is not a christian thing and that it is a valid scientific branch akin to evolution and that it is more credible than Darwinian evolution! He claims that science can't answer where the soul is and I told him that there is no soul and that everything is controlled by our brain and gave him a lengthy argument and I got carried away and said that the search for soul falls under the category of pseudoscience (nothing I can do, the message has been sent). But several statements that he came up with made me LOLed hard. He said that atheism is actually scientology! HA! And our logic and/or science is our new god. It's quite sad, really. But he's such a nice bloke and easy to work with. Very professional and a loving husband and father. But I just can't wrap my head around his, for lack of better word, idiocy.

So if you've been through similar experience or has something to say, please let me know. Should I continue on this endless debate with this guy or should I call it off and admit defeat so that I don't lose a friend?

Thanks and sorry for my english. I'm Indonesian and an ex-Christian.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like yongkykun's post
23-08-2011, 02:48 PM
RE: Torn
(23-08-2011 10:10 AM)yongkykun Wrote:  Hi y'all,
............ Should I continue on this endless debate with this guy or should I call it off and admit defeat so that I don't lose a friend?

Thanks and sorry for my english. I'm Indonesian and an ex-Christian.

Well done - I hope you can keep it up. I would find it hard to engage in religious debate with someone I meet at work. I would suggest the following:
  • Try to understand things from his point of view.
  • Maintain the utmost respect for his views - even if they are laughable.
  • Try to get to the bottom of why he believes what he does and avoid responding to the silly arguments.
  • Try and keep the discussion out of a work environment. Perhaps meet up for evening meals and discuss it then.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-08-2011, 05:45 PM
RE: Torn
(23-08-2011 02:48 PM)angry_liberal Wrote:  Well done - I hope you can keep it up. I would find it hard to engage in religious debate with someone I meet at work. I would suggest the following:
  • Try to understand things from his point of view.
  • Maintain the utmost respect for his views - even if they are laughable.
  • Try to get to the bottom of why he believes what he does and avoid responding to the silly arguments.
  • Try and keep the discussion out of a work environment. Perhaps meet up for evening meals and discuss it then.

Hi mate, and thank you.

*) Well, since I was born and raised in Indonesia, I can relate to his point of view even though he's a moslem and I was a christian, because as you probably know Indonesia has the largest population of Muslim in the world.
*) Yes, I don't ridicule and I won't.
*) That is easy and troublesome at the same time. Easy because I know his point of view and have studied Islam, but it's hard because this guy has set to himself that he will always be a Muslim to his death. So as a compromise, all that I can do is try and get his science facts straight as best as I could without touching his belief system.
*) Had a chat with him last night about work and guess what? We didn't talk about religion at all. Huge relief. Though I'm sure he's still formulating some more refutation to my answers from yesterday.

Thanks mate! To be honest, I'm just scared of me dear life. I have muslim friends who agree with Hittler and support his ideology (in regard to killing Jews). Same ones who think that the best way to end the corrupt regime that's plaguing our country is by carpet bombing the entire capital city. At the end of the day, I'm just one guy and haven't met any other atheist apart from an ex-muslim (even he's a closeted atheist and wouldn't discuss religion openly. Out of fear, no doubt).
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-08-2011, 11:31 PM
RE: Torn
(23-08-2011 05:45 PM)yongkykun Wrote:  Thanks mate! To be honest, I'm just scared of me dear life. I have muslim friends who agree with Hittler and support his ideology (in regard to killing Jews). Same ones who think that the best way to end the corrupt regime that's plaguing our country is by carpet bombing the entire capital city. At the end of the day, I'm just one guy and haven't met any other atheist apart from an ex-muslim (even he's a closeted atheist and wouldn't discuss religion openly. Out of fear, no doubt).

That sounds bad. Have you tried googling for discrete Indonesian atheist support groups? Or starting an anonymous and externally hosted blog?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
23-08-2011, 11:46 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2011 11:51 PM by yongkykun.)
RE: Torn
(23-08-2011 11:31 PM)angry_liberal Wrote:  That sounds bad. Have you tried googling for discrete Indonesian atheist support groups? Or starting an anonymous and externally hosted blog?

I have actually, but they have only less than 200 members spread across the nation. It's daunting, but I reckon it's better than nothing. BTW, any tip on how to host a blog?

EDIT: found a growing atheist community with over 500 members of Indonesian atheists.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-08-2011, 12:35 AM
RE: Torn
(23-08-2011 11:46 PM)yongkykun Wrote:  
(23-08-2011 11:31 PM)angry_liberal Wrote:  That sounds bad. Have you tried googling for discrete Indonesian atheist support groups? Or starting an anonymous and externally hosted blog?

I have actually, but they have only less than 200 members spread across the nation. It's daunting, but I reckon it's better than nothing. BTW, any tip on how to host a blog?

EDIT: found a growing atheist community with over 500 members of Indonesian atheists.

If maintaining anonymity is an issue host with nearlyfreespeach. It is hosted in the US, so protected by freedom of speach laws, and run on a shoestring so fairly cheap. I would use wordpress as a blogging package as that is the standard. There are also ways of blocking your IP address which I cannot remember just now.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes angry_liberal's post
24-08-2011, 12:52 AM
RE: Torn
Cool thing you got there. Just a word of advice, if it is dangerous for you, try to pay attention to that fact, I'm not sure whats the situation, legally, in you country, do you have Sharia laws there or not?

And I like how you have turned the story, don't even talk about Islam, talk about what atheism is, what is Scientology, tell him about some scientific facts, just try to educate him without touching his beliefs and his Islam. If he starts accepting your facts and knowledge, slowly he will start his way to understanding more things than just his one book. Good approach, keep it civilized and go slowly.

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Filox's post
24-08-2011, 01:51 AM
RE: Torn
(24-08-2011 12:35 AM)angry_liberal Wrote:  If maintaining anonymity is an issue host with nearlyfreespeach. It is hosted in the US, so protected by freedom of speach laws, and run on a shoestring so fairly cheap. I would use wordpress as a blogging package as that is the standard. There are also ways of blocking your IP address which I cannot remember just now.

Thank you. Got so excited that I'm having a writer's block at the moment.

(24-08-2011 12:52 AM)Filox Wrote:  Cool thing you got there. Just a word of advice, if it is dangerous for you, try to pay attention to that fact, I'm not sure whats the situation, legally, in you country, do you have Sharia laws there or not?

And I like how you have turned the story, don't even talk about Islam, talk about what atheism is, what is Scientology, tell him about some scientific facts, just try to educate him without touching his beliefs and his Islam. If he starts accepting your facts and knowledge, slowly he will start his way to understanding more things than just his one book. Good approach, keep it civilized and go slowly.

Thank you! Well, if you are just one individual, then it's okay. There is no islamic law in place at the moment even though there have been a lot of petition from moslem communities to incorporate sharia law. Legally speaking, I'm safe, but when you're dealing with a hot headed person who adamantly believes in his religion, you can't help but feel somewhat threathened.

Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. He hasn't sent another mail yet though I'm sure he will. Problem is he contradicts himself quite a lot. It's sad to think that people like him are so blinded. I really can't imagine how blinded I was back when I was a christian. Though admittedly I'm still a closet atheist, but I openly advocate reason and logic without mentioning anything remotely religious in nature, which is how I came up with the idea to get his science facts right first.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-08-2011, 02:18 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2011 02:24 AM by Filox.)
RE: Torn
If he contradicts himself, then is he is making it easier for you to show him his errors. Feel free to quote Quran and show him how he does not even know his own beliefs well enough. That can also start new ideas in his head.

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
24-08-2011, 03:09 AM
RE: Torn
(24-08-2011 02:18 AM)Filox Wrote:  If he contradicts himself, then is he is making it easier for you to show him his errors. Feel free to quote Quran and show him how he does not even know his own beliefs well enough. That can also start new ideas in his head.

I did that on my last mail. I pointed out the contradictions and instead of judging, I asked him to explain his point. I'd like to quote Quran, but I don't know any verses. I learned the religion from Karen Armstrong's books (Muhammad: Prophet of Our Time, and Islam: a Short History) as well as other historical books. Sad

But I have a lot of Muslim friends and have heard a lot of stories, which is why I said that I can relate to his point of view.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: