Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
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10-12-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
"Enhanced Interrogation" is a bullshit term. I was listening to NPR the other day and they had someone from the CIA talking about the report that came out recently from the democrats in the American Congress. His sole justification is that the CIA self reported their behavior to the justice department and got the green light every time. If it is legal it is also moral... according to small children and people with woefully lacking moral and social development.

What happened to those prisoners are Guantanamo Bay was torture. If you believe at all people have basic rights, if you subscribe to anything like the golden rule, if you are a person that feels anything at all when you see people in psychological and physical pain/duress, than torture is wrong. It is repugnant. It is beyond anamalistic; forgive me if I resort to the term "sadistic". It is a trait entirely unique to human beings, taking pleasure in the intense and prolonged pain of others. Worst of all it is isn't effective... you get equal parts misinformation if not more. In the end though, I think while the torture might have started as a means to an end, it quickly becomes an ends within itself. Torture is a willingness to subjugate; to treat people like objects - to treat them as if they are less than human. It embodies an attitude and an ideology that sees the enemy not as individuals but as a foreign element to be dominated. If you apply enough stress you can break through their individualism and their will, you can crack them open like a book and read the contents. It isn't true, and even if it was nobody should have a right to do that to another person.
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10-12-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
I think... maybe... if you have absolute power over a person I imagine... won't be long before you think "I *could* do X, and there'd be no consequence"... that kinda power... seems like it'd go to your head really quick... And then... this *gift*... this *sanctioned* no-consequence torture - fill out the form and just *do it* lands in your lap...

I have no doubt personally that I could reject it now, be repulsed by it even - the carefully cultivated "finer senses" that I have developed conspiring to pretend that the instinct to hurt is foreign... but... if I were 10 years younger... I wouldn't be able to control it, I don't think.

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10-12-2014, 01:05 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
I'm not gonna say I support the use of torture, but I feel the need to correct something regarding its effectiveness.

The interrogators are not complete morons. That might be tempting to believe, but it's just not the case. They are fully aware that people will say anything when under duress. Their technique is not as simple as ask question, torture, get answer, assume it's true. Just like with interrogation methods not using torture, interrogation is a complex process undertaken and overseen by people who have a fairly advance understanding of how the mind works.

Like the techniques or not, valuable information was obtained that might not have otherwise been obtained. The question that remains is was it worth it?

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10-12-2014, 01:12 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
(10-12-2014 01:05 PM)yakherder Wrote:  I'm not gonna say I support the use of torture, but I feel the need to correct something regarding its effectiveness.

The interrogators are not complete morons. That might be tempting to believe, but it's just not the case. They are fully aware that people will say anything when under duress. Their technique is not as simple as ask question, torture, get answer, assume it's true. Just like with interrogation methods not using torture, interrogation is a complex process undertaken and overseen by people who have a fairly advance understanding of how the mind works.

Like the techniques or not, valuable information was obtained that might not have otherwise been obtained. The question that remains is was it worth it?

Just who and what are you "correcting"? Not people and arguments I see in this thread...

To say "it's not effective" is not to say that it's never produced useful results ever under any conditions. It means that under any controlled comparison such methods produce useful information at lower rates than the alternatives. Surely the point of interrogation is to obtain useful information, yes?
(which is still entirely without introducing moral considerations!)

But would you agree that institutional attitudes and circumstances can strongly influence behaviour? That to deny emotional or other outside influences on key actors is only to increase susceptibility to them?

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10-12-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
(09-12-2014 03:32 PM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  I've seen a lot of discussion here lately about morality and ethics and what, if anything, our basis for these might be as atheists. Are there any constants or is it all relative?

Anyway, what's your take on torture and enhanced interrogation? Is it moral? Is it justified? Is it effective? How do you feel about the congressional report that's being released on all these juicy CIA practices?

Since those who receive such torture are the very ones who do not share in our moral values- and in many cases oppose them- then my sense of morality does not extend to them at all.

When it comes down to national security, and when the alternative is to see 1000s of people dying innocently, then fuck ya ... water board the pricks and do whatever the fuck we need to do to eliminate their sorry asses from this planet.

After all, what's a little torture when they hate us enough to kill us?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-12-2014, 01:28 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
(10-12-2014 01:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Surely the point of interrogation is to obtain useful information, yes?

I would also add timely....useful and timely.

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10-12-2014, 01:38 PM (This post was last modified: 10-12-2014 01:44 PM by cjlr.)
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
(10-12-2014 01:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 01:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Surely the point of interrogation is to obtain useful information, yes?

I would also add timely....useful and timely.

I would have thought "timely" very much implicit in "useful", but, sure...

To which I might then add that the Ticking Time Bomb scenario so many people offer as a hypothetical is not only vanishingly rare, but that even then torture is not effective.

EDIT: notwithstanding the outright silliness of the ol', "well, but, what if the situation's, like, really serious?" as a standard, and the total impossibility of translating that into legal terms...

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10-12-2014, 02:04 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
(10-12-2014 01:38 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(10-12-2014 01:28 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  I would also add timely....useful and timely.

I would have thought "timely" very much implicit in "useful", but, sure...

To which I might then add that the Ticking Time Bomb scenario so many people offer as a hypothetical is not only vanishingly rare, but that even then torture is not effective.

EDIT: notwithstanding the outright silliness of the ol', "well, but, what if the situation's, like, really serious?" as a standard, and the total impossibility of translating that into legal terms...

I was thinking of that scenario when I thought of adding "timely", but you're right, "useful" does imply timely. Blush

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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10-12-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
I do not condone torture, no matter who is doing the torturing or who the victim is.

I would need to have a definitiion of Enhanced Interrorgation to either agree or disagree with it's use.

I'm not that sure that either would work in regards to the "ticketing bomb" scenario people love to use as justification. Drinking Beverage

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10-12-2014, 03:43 PM
RE: Torture/Enhanced Interrogation
Here is some of what was on the Senate Intelligence Committee Report…
Quote:At least five CIA detainees were subjected to "rectal rehydration" or rectal feeding without documented medical necessity. The CIA placed detainees in water "baths". The CIA led several detainees to believe they would never be allowed to leave CIA custody alive, suggesting to one detainee that he would only leave in a coffin-shaped box. One interrogator told another detainee that he would never go to court, because "we can never let the world know what I have done to you." CIA officers also threatened at least three detainees with harm to their families to include threats to harm the children of a detainee, threats to sexually abuse the mother of a detainee, and a threat to "cut (a detainee's) mother's throat."

Not to repeat this too much but uh ... rectal rehydration .... that would fall into the category: what the fuck is going on here?!? Drinking Beverage

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