Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
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31-07-2013, 01:08 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
I don't think that kind of torture is ever justified.


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31-07-2013, 02:43 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The difference between you and me is this. For you every instance of torture is going to be unjustified. For me, I acknowledge that situations might exists which warrant the use of torture so I want to develop a test to judge it. I'm not interested in public policy but rather how to judge it when it does occur.

It has already been proven that torture does not garner accurate information.

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31-07-2013, 02:46 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 01:08 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't think that kind of torture is ever justified.

Why not?

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31-07-2013, 02:48 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 02:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 01:08 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't think that kind of torture is ever justified.

Why not?

Y'know? That pesky universal morality I mentioned?

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31-07-2013, 03:07 AM (This post was last modified: 31-07-2013 03:21 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 02:43 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  It has already been proven that torture does not garner accurate information.

Except that often it does.

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31-07-2013, 03:10 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 02:48 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 02:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why not?

Y'know? That pesky universal morality I mentioned?

Tell that to the cat that tortures the mouse for hours before it kills it.

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31-07-2013, 05:21 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 03:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Tell that to the cat that tortures the mouse for hours before it kills it.

The cat is not necessarily a social animal, and is often times solitary as opposed to social. Compared to other animals that actively seek and form packs, cats do not maintain the same social constructs. However, you will find that the majority of cats do not make their fellow felines suffer needlessly. Again, watch the video for a brief introduction on universal morality. There are certainly elements that we share, the disdain for needless torture being one of them.

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31-07-2013, 05:23 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 03:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Except that often it does.

It might, but again, you have to make a damage assessment. It produces inaccurate information far more often. It is a hindrance, not an improvement.

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31-07-2013, 07:01 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 12:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The difference between you and me is this. For you every instance of torture is going to be unjustified. For me, I acknowledge that situations might exists which warrant the use of torture so I want to develop a test to judge it. I'm not interested in public policy but rather how to judge it when it does occur.

I freely admitted such as scenario is possible. It is, after all, grounded in a phenomenon of a somewhat statistical nature. Therefore it is not impossible.

I maintain that it is vanishingly unlikely. And it is absolutely not the case when it comes to eg Guantanamo prisoners.

Studies into the efficacy of torture (and Logica posted several, which you denigrated as "evidence") indicate that it is not effective. What more "evidence" do you require?

I do not see any means for a human being to tell beforehand whether a given situation is part of the vanishingly small set wherein torture may produce some gain. Therefore the chance of it being effective if applied (while technically not zero) is statistically insignificant. Therefore any use of torture is far more likely to be purely an infliction of suffering. Therefore its use is immoral.

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31-07-2013, 01:06 PM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 05:21 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 03:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Tell that to the cat that tortures the mouse for hours before it kills it.

The cat is not necessarily a social animal, and is often times solitary as opposed to social. Compared to other animals that actively seek and form packs, cats do not maintain the same social constructs. However, you will find that the majority of cats do not make their fellow felines suffer needlessly. Again, watch the video for a brief introduction on universal morality. There are certainly elements that we share, the disdain for needless torture being one of them.

Apes and primates use violence and intimidation frequently to get what they want.

http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshe...explicable

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