Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
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31-07-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 01:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Apes and primates use violence and intimidation frequently to get what they want.

http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshe...explicable

And? This literally has no weight with what I just said. I take it you did not watch that brief video I provided you either? The video demonstrates how primates and apes fight, but frequently make up afterwards.

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31-07-2013, 03:22 PM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 02:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 01:08 AM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I don't think that kind of torture is ever justified.

Why not?

It's a slippery slope. People might not have any useful information. But even more the psychological damage done -- to the people tortured and the tortures. And what's the end game?

Life in prison? Execution? Trial? Military tribunal? People will do or say anything to make the torture stop. Most of the information is likely to be false or outdated -- useless. Plus you really don't know for certain who has and hasn't good information.

The truth is that anyone says its not damaging and torture is useful -- is simply being disingenuous to the perversive nature of it.

Also, there is a psychological difference between people willingly undergoing say, water boarding willingly to prove it isn't a big deal (as a few republican congressmen claimed to have done, and being really declared an enemy combatant and having it done.

As I said in the beginning it's a slippery slope.

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03-08-2013, 02:46 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
It happens because America don't care.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think any country would really care (though I suspect New Zealand would, but this country is full of hippy cunts so w/e).

I mean since when did you'll care about some Arab? Or even some intelligence officer?
You'll, like the rest of the west, are nice and happy in your little cocoon of materialism.
So sure, you'll kick and scream a little when someone get's tortured in the name of protecting that cocoon, but deep down you don't want someone coming along and fucking up that cocoon so ultimately you're not gonna do a damn thing.

Thus, torturing continues.

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03-08-2013, 02:51 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(03-08-2013 02:46 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  It happens because America don't care.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think any country would really care (though I suspect New Zealand would, but this country is full of hippy cunts so w/e).

I mean since when did you'll care about some Arab? Or even some intelligence officer?
You'll, like the rest of the west, are nice and happy in your little cocoon of materialism.
So sure, you'll kick and scream a little when someone get's tortured in the name of protecting that cocoon, but deep down you don't want someone coming along and fucking up that cocoon so ultimately you're not gonna do a damn thing.

Thus, torturing continues.

Actually, no. In 2009 President Obama used an executive order to restrict interrogation techniques to only 19 methods, and all of them were from the Army Field Manual. It is really not in effect anymore.

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03-08-2013, 02:58 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(03-08-2013 02:51 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 02:46 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  It happens because America don't care.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think any country would really care (though I suspect New Zealand would, but this country is full of hippy cunts so w/e).

I mean since when did you'll care about some Arab? Or even some intelligence officer?
You'll, like the rest of the west, are nice and happy in your little cocoon of materialism.
So sure, you'll kick and scream a little when someone get's tortured in the name of protecting that cocoon, but deep down you don't want someone coming along and fucking up that cocoon so ultimately you're not gonna do a damn thing.

Thus, torturing continues.

Actually, no. In 2009 President Obama used an executive order to restrict interrogation techniques to only 19 methods, and all of them were from the Army Field Manual. It is really not in effect anymore.

Then wtf is the problem?

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03-08-2013, 03:10 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(03-08-2013 02:58 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Then wtf is the problem?

Heywood Jahblome is arguing that they were effective. They weren't.

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03-08-2013, 03:13 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(03-08-2013 03:10 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 02:58 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  Then wtf is the problem?

Heywood Jahblome is arguing that they were effective. They weren't.

How do you know though?
I would think that any torturing that went on, the information as a result of that torture would be confidential.

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03-08-2013, 03:15 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(03-08-2013 03:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  How do you know though?
I would think that any torturing that went on, the information as a result of that torture would be confidential.

Because numerous psychological and neurological examinations indicate that extreme duress causes the individual to provide inaccurate information. Both the FBI and CIA also came forth, arguing that the enhanced interrogation techniques were not effective information gathering methods, and that the tortured individuals only told the interrogators what they wanted to hear; not what was actually going on.

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03-08-2013, 06:39 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(03-08-2013 03:15 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(03-08-2013 03:13 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  How do you know though?
I would think that any torturing that went on, the information as a result of that torture would be confidential.

Because numerous psychological and neurological examinations indicate that extreme duress causes the individual to provide inaccurate information. Both the FBI and CIA also came forth, arguing that the enhanced interrogation techniques were not effective information gathering methods, and that the tortured individuals only told the interrogators what they wanted to hear; not what was actually going on.

I suspect that the results are due to an inability to discern who has the information and who does not.

Torturing someone for answers he doesn't have will obviously produce misinformation.
Torturing someone who actually possesses the information? Well, do we have accurate statistics on that?

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03-08-2013, 06:44 AM
RE: Torture: The Guantanamo Guidebook
(31-07-2013 03:22 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(31-07-2013 02:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Why not?

It's a slippery slope. People might not have any useful information. But even more the psychological damage done -- to the people tortured and the tortures. And what's the end game?

Life in prison? Execution? Trial? Military tribunal? People will do or say anything to make the torture stop. Most of the information is likely to be false or outdated -- useless. Plus you really don't know for certain who has and hasn't good information.

The truth is that anyone says its not damaging and torture is useful -- is simply being disingenuous to the perversive nature of it.

Also, there is a psychological difference between people willingly undergoing say, water boarding willingly to prove it isn't a big deal (as a few republican congressmen claimed to have done, and being really declared an enemy combatant and having it done.

As I said in the beginning it's a slippery slope.

I don't want to live in a society that condones or institutionalizes torture - that would be a very dangerous society to live in.

However, I can imagine the scenario where I have subdued my daughter's kidnapper - he has her hidden somewhere.
Time is running out for her.

Would I torture him to get her location?
I don't know if I would have the stomach for it, but I would not rule it out.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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