Tough questions
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
29-05-2014, 08:21 PM
RE: Tough questions
(29-05-2014 05:15 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Ask him a much more fundamental question. Ask him how he reconciles the blatant contradiction between the principle of the primacy of consciousness that his god claim affirms and the principle of the primacy of existence that he must accept and use if he wants to prove that his god claim is objectively true.
I hate to say this but I don't understand your "more fundamental question." Huh

Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice Is also great
And would suffice. -- Robert Frost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-05-2014, 09:13 PM
RE: Tough questions
(29-05-2014 08:21 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 05:15 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  Ask him a much more fundamental question. Ask him how he reconciles the blatant contradiction between the principle of the primacy of consciousness that his god claim affirms and the principle of the primacy of existence that he must accept and use if he wants to prove that his god claim is objectively true.
I hate to say this but I don't understand your "more fundamental question." Huh

I'll be glad to explain it in more detail tomorrow as I am working late in my shop tonight.

The very short version is this: The question of metaphysical primacy has to do with the relationship between the subject of consciousness (in this case God) and the objects of consciousness (entities in reality). Does consciousness conform to its objects or do its objects conform to it? Are the facts of reality immutable absolutes or does wishing make things so? For any fact to be objectively true it must be true absolutely and independently from any consciousness. This is the principle of the primacy of existence over consciousness. The contents of the theists' claims of their god directly contradict this concept which is implicit in all knowledge, logic, argument or fact. Furthermore it is an axiomatic concept. Any attempt to refute it only affirms it as its opponent must accept it and use it in the attempt. Even in making the claim that their god exists they affirm the primacy of existence over consciousness. This makes their god claim logically impossible and self refuting since it affirms the primacy of consciousness over existence (wishing makes things so). They would be committing the fallacy of the stolen concept.

If your friend understands it, this question will put the fear of god into him so to speak. Christians can not ever address the implications of this contradiction if they hope to hold onto their belief in God. Don't be surprised if he wants to break off the discussion.

If you want to know more I'll be glad to explain. If not, that's cool too.

Have a good night.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2014, 12:52 PM
RE: Tough questions
(29-05-2014 02:47 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 06:32 AM)pablo628 Wrote:  What are the tough questions you're being asked?
Good question. I actually don't think he's asking tough questions.

His latest is about the question of evil. It comes down to "would you rather man have free will, or that men just be robots." I've answered that this is a false dichotomy. He claims that I have not responded to his question.Facepalm

It's also an ill formed question. Ask him "when he stopped beating his wife?" as an example of an ill formed question. Then he may understand why you aren't answering his.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Tough questions
(29-05-2014 09:13 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(29-05-2014 08:21 PM)f stop Wrote:  I hate to say this but I don't understand your "more fundamental question." Huh

I'll be glad to explain it in more detail tomorrow as I am working late in my shop tonight.

The very short version is this: The question of metaphysical primacy has to do with the relationship between the subject of consciousness (in this case God) and the objects of consciousness (entities in reality). Does consciousness conform to its objects or do its objects conform to it? Are the facts of reality immutable absolutes or does wishing make things so? For any fact to be objectively true it must be true absolutely and independently from any consciousness. This is the principle of the primacy of existence over consciousness. The contents of the theists' claims of their god directly contradict this concept which is implicit in all knowledge, logic, argument or fact. Furthermore it is an axiomatic concept. Any attempt to refute it only affirms it as its opponent must accept it and use it in the attempt. Even in making the claim that their god exists they affirm the primacy of existence over consciousness. This makes their god claim logically impossible and self refuting since it affirms the primacy of consciousness over existence (wishing makes things so). They would be committing the fallacy of the stolen concept.

If your friend understands it, this question will put the fear of god into him so to speak. Christians can not ever address the implications of this contradiction if they hope to hold onto their belief in God. Don't be surprised if he wants to break off the discussion.

If you want to know more I'll be glad to explain. If not, that's cool too.

Have a good night.

I still only half get what you are saying. To be honest it sounds like woo Deepak Chopra shit. I'm getting caught up on primacy and consciousness. Any way to dummy it down?
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-08-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: Tough questions
IMO it almost doesn't matter what you ask aside from, "How do you know what you believe is actually true?" Anything they respond with usually is not a valid source and it will all boil down to personal experience in the end (usually).

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-08-2014, 10:10 PM
RE: Tough questions
Just came on this forum more or less by accident. Gotta think there is a chance that eternal peace for our soul might be somehow tied in with our decision to follow or fall away with the messages of how Jesus showed us to live. Whether a devout Born again or professed Atheist, I would venture to say all who come to this forum have had to ponder what the heck was going on 2,000 years ago when Jesus came upon the scene. When Jesus challenged everyone in the crowd to have someone cast the first stone, I believe it did give the world a new hope and outlook. Without those actions of Jesus where would the world be today?

One might speculate that Thomas was at one time an Atheist? It might be that many(all?) are saved by their own doubts. Concerning tough questions, I don't think organized religion adequately answers much of what is described in the Old Testament. The accounts of Jesus also for me is a mind-boggling contradiction in so many ways and it holds me very much in thought.

Perhaps one of the most questioning film/plays I have seen was Jesus Christ SuperStar. The Life of Pi another movie that put me to think. Also Last Temptation of Christ a movie that I felt was thought provoking.

Tough questions do need to be asked.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-08-2014, 10:17 PM
RE: Tough questions
(10-08-2014 10:10 PM)fluffycat Wrote:  Just came on this forum more or less by accident. Gotta think there is a chance that eternal peace for our soul might be somehow tied in with our decision to follow or fall away with the messages of how Jesus showed us to live. Whether a devout Born again or professed Atheist, I would venture to say all who come to this forum have had to ponder what the heck was going on 2,000 years ago when Jesus came upon the scene. When Jesus challenged everyone in the crowd to have someone cast the first stone, I believe it did give the world a new hope and outlook. Without those actions of Jesus where would the world be today?

One might speculate that Thomas was at one time an Atheist? It might be that many(all?) are saved by their own doubts. Concerning tough questions, I don't think organized religion adequately answers much of what is described in the Old Testament. The accounts of Jesus also for me is a mind-boggling contradiction in so many ways and it holds me very much in thought.

Perhaps one of the most questioning film/plays I have seen was Jesus Christ SuperStar. The Life of Pi another movie that put me to think. Also Last Temptation of Christ a movie that I felt was thought provoking.

Tough questions do need to be asked.

Welcome...

The first question to ask -- did he exist?

I don't think so -- or at least he's far more myth than man.


[Image: mrhanky.jpg]

Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Momsurroundedbyboys's post
11-08-2014, 06:53 AM
RE: Tough questions
I'm sorry this post just seems kind of spammy to me. Out of place no?


(10-08-2014 10:10 PM)fluffycat Wrote:  Just came on this forum more or less by accident. Gotta think there is a chance that eternal peace for our soul might be somehow tied in with our decision to follow or fall away with the messages of how Jesus showed us to live. Whether a devout Born again or professed Atheist, I would venture to say all who come to this forum have had to ponder what the heck was going on 2,000 years ago when Jesus came upon the scene. When Jesus challenged everyone in the crowd to have someone cast the first stone, I believe it did give the world a new hope and outlook. Without those actions of Jesus where would the world be today?

One might speculate that Thomas was at one time an Atheist? It might be that many(all?) are saved by their own doubts. Concerning tough questions, I don't think organized religion adequately answers much of what is described in the Old Testament. The accounts of Jesus also for me is a mind-boggling contradiction in so many ways and it holds me very much in thought.

Perhaps one of the most questioning film/plays I have seen was Jesus Christ SuperStar. The Life of Pi another movie that put me to think. Also Last Temptation of Christ a movie that I felt was thought provoking.

Tough questions do need to be asked.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-08-2014, 06:56 AM
RE: Tough questions
(28-05-2014 10:36 PM)f stop Wrote:  A theist claims that I can't answer his tough questions. Any suggestions for tough questions I might ask him? So far I've come up with
  • How do you know the Bible is the word of God?
  • How do you know Jesus existed?
  • The riddle of Epicurus.
  • If the big bang never happened how do you explain the expanding universe?
  • Did God sanction the holocaust, the crusades, etc.
Any others?

I recommend the believer replace their book name, their god name and their hero name with another they don't buy and suggest they ask themselves if the argument still makes sense with another club inserted.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-08-2014, 11:31 AM
RE: Tough questions
(10-08-2014 10:10 PM)fluffycat Wrote:  ...When Jesus challenged everyone in the crowd to have someone cast the first stone, I believe it did give the world a new hope and outlook....
You seem to be casting your own stone. Apparently, you didn't understand the message. Drinking Beverage

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: