Toulambis tribe
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09-04-2012, 12:47 PM
Toulambis tribe



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I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
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09-04-2012, 03:36 PM
RE: Toulambis tribe
I saw this video a while ago...
I am still not sure how to react to it.

1. This is how "gods" are created. Get in contact with a tribe that has never seen something like a white person, or technical things. They are open for new things but not quite ready to understand it. So the magical thinking kicks in big time.

2. This is how you create wars/bad vibes. "Why does that god-like thing give a magical thing to my friend but not to me?" Jealousy and "I want that too". Plus giving them things that may look really useful to us but are indeed dangerous for people who have never seen or used them before, like the machete.

3. Giving them rice? seriously? They are not used to this kind of food and you can seriously fuck them up or bring diseases they have never known and will not know how to deal with once you are gone.

4. Diseases are another thing. You might be a carrier of something that is completely harmless to you and the people you are coming from. Your immune system will fight it off easily but theirs might not know the virus at all and they die from it. Every moved from one country to another? Alone that kicks your immune-system's ass enough already although the virusses are kinda similar. But bring something completely new might cause death...

5. The only positive thing I can find there, is to see how such a first contact can look like. See how they live and how curious they are. But that is all.

Dunno. I simply can't find a good reason to do something like that. Leave them alone, leave them in peace, don't interupt their life style, you might cause more harm than good - even if the intentions are good or at least not bad

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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10-04-2012, 12:17 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 12:29 PM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Toulambis tribe
(09-04-2012 03:36 PM)Leela Wrote:  Leave them alone, leave them in peace, don't interupt their life style, you might cause more harm than good
All that sounds nice and idealistic, but you're thinking with your gut, not with your head. Because you know that even if you manage to leave them alone and in peace they will, eventually and inevitably, get into contact with the outside world. And the longer you delay that, the greater the differences – physically (immunology), technologically, and culturally – between them and us will be. And the greater the differences the more disastrous the consequences for the underlying party when they do meet. Which we know they will at some point.

I.o.w. leaving them alone and in peace now – though it sounds very politically correct – IRL only exacerbates the consequences for them later.

I don't want to be guilty of that.
Francisco de Orellana's excuse was ignorance. It killed 95%+ of all Amazonas Indians! We in the 21st century don't have that excuse anymore!

So I advocate contacting them asap, and then, as gently as possible – take a decade if you have to – acquaint them with the outside world while innoculating the hell out of 'm, educating them, and counselling them intensively. If it is going to happen anyway then make it happen with the greatest possible care.
If we turn our backs on them (literally) and act as if they don't exist, we will be responsible for making their future so much worse than it can be if we step up to the challenge and do our damnedest to help them integrate into the world as best they can.

I think we owe it to them.
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10-04-2012, 12:23 PM
RE: Toulambis tribe
That's a good point, Scarlet.

It is bound to happen. Does this mean we make it happen as smoothly as possible or does it mean we should find a way to make it not happen? A complete Star Trek like non interference policy? Being on the same planet makes the non interference almost impossible.

I still find it crazy to think of how there are people who have never experienced modern life. How wondrous the world must seem to them. How magical.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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10-04-2012, 12:31 PM (This post was last modified: 10-04-2012 12:32 PM by Scarlet Pimpernel.)
RE: Toulambis tribe
And how scary.

Good news: Santorum steps out.
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11-04-2012, 11:55 PM
RE: Toulambis tribe
You make good points, but I actually put this on because I was amazed with the behaviour of the natives. They behaved like wild animals, very curious, but very cautious. They acted out with reflexes, fear and defence, but they were still curious and wanted to see the "white dead zombies", as that is the way they see white people, it must be something from their legends, probably means that this is not the first time they have seen a white man. I was amazed how their behaviour can be traced back to our wild ancestors, how closer to nature they are, how their behaviour is more animal like than modern human alike. For me, these kind of things are kinda proof for evolution, these people are what you could look as "the missing link". They are not contaminated with western BS, with technology and false religious morality. We should learn from them, not teach them.

Unfortunately, a lot of them has died from diseases in the next few years after this first contact, so that means that people who have come to see them did not prepare accordingly. These are the things we can make better when making first contact.

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12-04-2012, 12:03 PM
RE: Toulambis tribe
People rarely prepare for these things. The safest (not completely safe) way to introduce yourself to an isolated tribe is to spend a month or so in their habitat prior to interacting with them, make sure you're not sick, and bring as little foreign materials with you as possible. Toothpaste has killed tribes.

I'm on Scarlet and Leela's side on this one =p I really feel that people should be left to live their lives, but I know what happens when you do that. Cultural anthropologists have studied small isolated tribes for a long time. Occasionally introducing foreign objects such as cigarettes (a very common bargaining tool in the past). For the most part cultural anthropologists simply observe and learn from groups to see how they live and why. Many very interesting facts can be learned about alternate ways of living healthful. Unfortunately, anthropologists document their excursions and share the information with their peers. Obviously this would normally be a good thing, but it also means the world learns about these peoples.

It would be great to let them live as they do in a much more simple and harmonic life. Yes it can be quite brutal and difficult, but few groups alive today hate life in general. Tribes generally have ways to keep themselves happy and live full though dependent lives. Unfortunately corporations don't see it that way. Many corporations have targeted tribes in an effort to find cheap labor. Populations are forced into a wholly dependent lifestyle where they learn to produce cash crops and buy their food. Generations down the line they can't even make food for themselves anymore. This scenario plays out over and over. And if corporations weren't bad enough let's look at the middle men, missionaries. Religious zealots who feel it's their duty to spread religion throughout the world using modern technology as a reward system for conversion. In plenty of areas the missions won't even help natives who do not accept their religion. Yet again forcing a lifestyle on a people who were quite capable of living beforehand.

If I had the money what I would do is go to isolated groups and introduce myself as someone there to help. Teach them what to avoid in future encounters with outsiders, and give them a fighting chance to prevent the western world from turning them into slaves. That's about the best that we could do, there are no treaties in this world which christians and corporations accept. They are always willing to bend the rules in order to turn a profit.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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12-04-2012, 01:23 PM
RE: Toulambis tribe
Filox, why do say "behaved like wild animals"? What do you think would happen if you brought a black child into a school where the children had never seen anyone but white people... lots of touching of hair and skin, that's what, curiously and cautiously.

I took a taxi in Indonesia last year and the driver wanted to touch my grey silver hair cos he had not seen anything like it before except on TV (Richard Gere seemed to be the only English words he knew).

They are not a missing link in evolution merely a link back to our history. They have evolved their way and we have evolved our way.

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12-04-2012, 05:06 PM
RE: Toulambis tribe
Scarlet, you make some points but I do not aggree
We do not owe anything to them, and they don't owe us anything.
Like Filox said, they evolved their way and we evolved ours.
I know I am very idealistic but in my opinion we should not go and rip them out of a lifestyle that works just fine for them. They look happy and curious and that is what people "should" look like.
Well, yes they should be prepared for future encounters. But slowly and gently.
You don't come and bring them a machete, mirrors, matches, and rice, and not think about the consequences.
These people are normally peaceful tribes and they survive well because of their strong sense of family/group/community. You bring some stuff that is a limited thing, not everyone can have it, and you create jealousy and therefore fights. You bring them food, their bodies are not used to, you create disease. You bring your virusses because maybe you are a carrier, you create death. You bring them a simple mirror, you create witchcraft.... etc... I could go on

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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13-04-2012, 12:27 AM
RE: Toulambis tribe
@DLJ

I know, it was more of a figure of speech, than actual fact, I know they are as evolved physically as we are, but their traditions and customs are ancient. So ancient that we can learn about our own ancient history just by observing them. And if you looked closely at their motions and curiosity, the closest thing I have seen is human contact with apes or some other wild animals. Since they are wild people (by our western standards) and I think of people as one animal species, I called them wild animals... Maybe I should have used different words, but I couldn't find the right words at a time.

Some of the things how they have acted reminded me of some cats and how I was trying to domesticate them using their own curiosity.

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-Hunter S. Thompson
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