Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
08-05-2017, 11:45 AM
Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
I went for a stroll this morning, enjoying the gorgeous spring weather and flowers, and I got to thinking. (Yes, you can say "oh,oh!" Tongue)

The general trend among western countries towards nationalism/populism and islamist terrorism have a lot in common. They are both a loud cry against losing traditions.

For a while there some middle eastern countries were getting more and more secular and adopted a lot of things from the west. That was met with calls for jihad and sharia law. The church AND culture were afraid of disappearing. Traditions were falling by the wayside and being replaced. These traditions are part of what provided peoples with their identities.

The same happened in the states and is now trying to happen in Europe. People are losing their traditions and identities to the melting pot that seems to be growing at a rapid pace.

So this got me to thinking more about traditions. When I travelled, I always tried to be with the indigenous people, eat what they eat, do what they do, and soak up the culture. I certainly wasn't looking for MacDonalds. It is this identity, culture and tradition that differentiates the cultures from each other. It is this identity people are so scared to lose that they will fight for it, to the death in some cases, in a more civilized way in others.

And I do get it. I have thoroughly enjoyed the different cultures, they reflect history and different ways of looking at things, they create wonderfully different foods and music and art, I love the diversity.

Each of these cultures is afraid of losing itself today. Walk the streets of Munich - you will nary hear a word of Bavarian spoken. I, too, miss that.

I think what we are looking at is the world trying to come to grips with blurring borders and populations and the dwindling of tradition and cultures. There is much resistance to that, and it's coming to a head in many places now.

I wish I could jump ahead and read some history books a few hundred years from now...

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Dom's post
08-05-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
Quote:It is this identity people are so scared to lose that they will fight for it, to the death in some cases, in a more civilized way in others. They reflect history and different ways of looking at things, they create wonderfully different foods and music and art, I love the diversity

You're a better man woman that I am, Gunga Dom Rolleyes

I deeply deeply doubt *this* is what your average frothing at the mouth "traditionalist" is scared of losing. Hell, I doubt they even know half of the history behind their traditions. It's mostly the us-and-them utterly ignorant ugliness rearing its head again (not that it's ever been not reared, really, in one form or another)

I've been thinking about this a lot, too, and I, too, think this current ugliness is a reaction to an increasingly globalised world. The thing is, there is no stopping this train. And while cultures dying is sad, they have always - always - done so (Minoans, anyone?) and if this is the price to pay for a more united and less racist world - let 'em die, say I (exaggerating slightly as per usual, but not entirely).


(Also, I envy you so much the flowers and the spring Sadcryface )

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Vera's post
08-05-2017, 12:48 PM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
The fifth century paganii (farmers, villagers, general country-folk) of the roman empire...

(sorry. I got sidetracked, came back to the phone, and forgot what point I was trying to make)

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Old Man Marsh's post
08-05-2017, 01:25 PM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
Vera you're more hopeful than me. I don't think globalisation is inevitable. I think it's desirable, but... I think the insular "fuck off, don't come here" mentality will prevail, at least in the next 10, perhaps the next 20-30 years. We are too many, resources are few. When times are hard, people look out for themselves.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like morondog's post
08-05-2017, 01:43 PM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
Oh, I don't think either of us will live to see it (and we may still proudly earn ourselves the ultimate Darwin Award for Exterminating the Whole Species by Climate Change)... but in my calmer, try-and-look-positively moments I do believe it is inevitable - barring some sort of an apocalyptic event, we really cannot go back to living each in our own little village, totally ignorant of the immense world around us. And knowing someone is the first step to realising they are just like you, and we are all the same and that pale blue dot hurtling through space is one whole and not a patchwork of arbitrarily divided patches of dirt and...

... and I think I caught what Old Man Marsh has Blush

I'm also reading Pinker's Better Angels of Our Nature and it's helping a lot (well, I haven't actually been doing *any* reading since I left the animal place more than a month ago, not have I felt as calm as I did there, but still...)

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Vera's post
08-05-2017, 02:54 PM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(08-05-2017 01:43 PM)Vera Wrote:  Oh, I don't think either of us will live to see it (and we may still proudly earn ourselves the ultimate Darwin Award for Exterminating the Whole Species by Climate Change)... but in my calmer, try-and-look-positively moments I do believe it is inevitable - barring some sort of an apocalyptic event, we really cannot go back to living each in our own little village, totally ignorant of the immense world around us.

It won't be too many decades before environmental refugees mix the populations of the world up even more.

And with the internet, I find I have more in common with people in this forum, from all over the world, than I do with my nextdoor neighbor, a black Christian immigrant from Sierra Leone with a big family. We smile, say hello and wave, but have little else to say to each other.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-05-2017, 04:16 PM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(08-05-2017 11:45 AM)Dom Wrote:  The same happened in the states and is now trying to happen in Europe. People are losing their traditions and identities to the melting pot that seems to be growing at a rapid pace.

Seems, in many peoples minds, being the operative word.

Nothing could be further from the truth if one looks at the statistics. 3 to 5 percent in any given western country are muslims. Between 3 to 5 percent of religiously motivated terrorism according to FBI and Europol statistics.

This fear doesn't come out of the blue though. It's partly grown on the economical ruins of 2008 and it's promoted by dubious political movements to change a political dime on the backs of the others. Scapegoating is the ticket they're running on.

As I said in the other thread about the Macron election, it's not a new phenomenon either. We observed the same tendencies in the 30ies. After the great crash of 1929. It's so blatantly obvious if you only exchance the word muslim for jew in their speeches and you have a perfect rendition of a Goebbels speech.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like abaris's post
08-05-2017, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 08-05-2017 06:36 PM by Dom.)
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
I am not necessarily talking about present times, and most certainly not talking about Islam, other than that Islam, too, is trying to protect it's traditions.

It started happening with the advent of automobiles and trains. The regional customs started getting blurred. Before that, there were a lot more very distinct dialects. Anyone who didn't speak the dialect, was a foreigner, even if they came from 30 miles away.

And it's been slowly creeping and creeping. If you walk down a main street in any metropolitan city in Europe, you will hear many languages. If you want food native to the region, you have to know people who live there. Or go outside of the city. You don't see many people in their traditional dress or hear native music.

The melting pots have long started to melt. My parents were still considered odd - both German but one from Westphalia and one from Bavaria. They spoke different dialects and people had issues understanding my dad. They were discriminated against.

Today you have mixed marriages from all over Europe. In the US, many are already so blended that they actually don't know their origins, and most certainly they don't have the old traditions anymore.

That is what is being resisted. Mixing cultures. The weird thing is that people don't realize that they are already mixed, and they already have left their cultures behind. It's been a very slow progression.

It will be centuries before most humans will be a similar color and share a language. But it's coming, and it's unstoppable.

Instead of messing around with politics, people should set about preserving cultures for posterity. So we can all still enjoy ethnic foods, clothes, dialects, architectures, art and music for centuries to come. Forcing populations to conform to a prescribed life style via governments and nationalism isn't the way to achieve this. Creating parks and districts and such may be a solution.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-05-2017, 07:42 PM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(08-05-2017 12:35 PM)Vera Wrote:  I've been thinking about this a lot, too, and I, too, think this current ugliness is a reaction to an increasingly globalised world. The thing is, there is no stopping this train.

Recently I saw a statistic that shows a strong correlation between an immigration rate of 22% and increased nationalism.

Immigration Is Driving Force Behind Populism

From the article:
Quote:... one statistical analysis of European Union countries found that more immigrants invariably means more populists. According to the study, if you extrapolate from current trends, "as the percentage of immigrants approaches approximately 22 percent, the percentage of right-wing populist voters exceeds 50 percent."

Given that liberal western governments across the world continue to allow increased levels of immigration - for better or worse - it doesn't appear to me that they are considering the long-term social consequences.

Someone has already mentioned environmental refugees. The irony is that right-wing leadership has consistently denied that climate change is an issue, yet these very same right-winger rail against immigration and the influx of refugees. Many of these mass migrations of people are a direct result of climate change. If they - the right-wingers - had taken climate change seriously to begin with and actually done something about it, the immigration/refugee issue wouldn't be a problem.

Source: Climate change will stir 'unimaginable' refugee crisis, says military

If you think that the immigration/refugee crisis is a problem now, you ain't seen nothing yet.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Heath_Tierney's post
09-05-2017, 01:47 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(08-05-2017 06:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  That is what is being resisted. Mixing cultures. The weird thing is that people don't realize that they are already mixed, and they already have left their cultures behind. It's been a very slow progression.

Bit late for that. And, with all respect, I don't think that's the real reason. People always adapted willingly when there was an incentive to adapt. They always fell back on nationalism whenever times were bad. Fueled by powers promoting nationalism and tradition.

The mixing of cultures is a reality for centuries whereas nationalism is a rather new development in historical terms. Ironically the French revolution and the ensuing wars are behind it. It's the 19th century when nationalist movements first cropped up. Most prominently in what later became Germany and what later turned into Italy.

As for todays situation, you also have to look at how traditions of nationalism is promoted. There's always the judeo/christian heritage being invoked. So there's also a very strong religious connotation behind it. Instrumentalised of course.

The ultimate goal is, of course, to present the people with a flag to rally behind. Something to feel elevated, which goes hand in hand with presenting scapegoats.

[Image: Labrador%20and%20Title.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes abaris's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: