Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
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09-05-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(09-05-2017 01:47 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(08-05-2017 06:32 PM)Dom Wrote:  That is what is being resisted. Mixing cultures. The weird thing is that people don't realize that they are already mixed, and they already have left their cultures behind. It's been a very slow progression.

Bit late for that. And, with all respect, I don't think that's the real reason. People always adapted willingly when there was an incentive to adapt. They always fell back on nationalism whenever times were bad. Fueled by powers promoting nationalism and tradition.

The mixing of cultures is a reality for centuries whereas nationalism is a rather new development in historical terms. Ironically the French revolution and the ensuing wars are behind it. It's the 19th century when nationalist movements first cropped up. Most prominently in what later became Germany and what later turned into Italy.

As for todays situation, you also have to look at how traditions of nationalism is promoted. There's always the judeo/christian heritage being invoked. So there's also a very strong religious connotation behind it. Instrumentalised of course.

The ultimate goal is, of course, to present the people with a flag to rally behind. Something to feel elevated, which goes hand in hand with presenting scapegoats.

We are looking at that from different view points. They are not really contradicting. I am more looking at the psychology of the individual citizen. You are looking at how this is exploited.

People don't just rally. They rally when they see a solution to something they feel miserable about in their real, individual life story. Something that goes against the grain of what they were raised to expect. Something that they fear. A future they envisioned that turns out to be a delusion.

It is mostly based on fear of further loss. Loss of familiarity, loss of financial expectations. The underlying thing of it all is fear of change. The great majority of us suffer from fear of change in our personal lives. When the change includes the permanent loss of the status quo (real or imagined) it causes fears that are strong enough to rouse the people.

Fear of the unknown is an integral part of our survival. Don't stray too far from the cave, there be monsters on the other side of the mountain. Don't eat the red berries, people have died after eating them. Don't trust strangers, they will kill you and abduct your wife. And so forth.

It is these base, instinctive fears that politicians exploit. So then you look at Joe Blow's life who voted populist. What are the fears in his current life that are being exploited?

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09-05-2017, 07:20 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
Is it possible to enjoy something, find it interesting, and be glad that it existed (quaint, ancient cultures, or even different modern cultures) while simultaneously recognizing its inherent irrationality and wanting it to go away?

I've enjoyed my time abroad, from living in rural China to eating tarantula legs prepared by tribal South Americans to holding dialogue with elders in remote Afghan villages. Nonetheless, I'm ready for robots to take over and rule the world with unbiased rationality and consistency.

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09-05-2017, 07:43 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(09-05-2017 07:06 AM)Dom Wrote:  People don't just rally. They rally when they see a solution to something they feel miserable about in their real, individual life story.

Yeah, that's when sentiments can be exploited or led to follow a constructive route. Nationalism always exploited people. People want to lead a good life, and as long as that works out, traditions, nations or race take the backseat.

Where we differ is that traditions or purity of culture aren't a natural fallback point for people. The disenfranchised dream of a better life. A life without worrying about how to pay the next rent and the bills. They may dream about better times, when they weren't neck deep in that mess, but that doesn't automatically lead to a fallback on something that only existed on a regional level at best. Traditions and cultures are very different even within certain countries. Apart from multiculturalism always having been a part of many nations. Due to either colonialism and the influx of people coming from these (former) colonies or the multi ethnic nature of the state. People are kicked into a hateful frenzy by the ones changing a political dime on the backs of their misery. Right now there's noone taking them by the hand to show them a more constructive approach.

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09-05-2017, 07:52 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(09-05-2017 07:20 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Is it possible to enjoy something, find it interesting, and be glad that it existed (quaint, ancient cultures, or even different modern cultures) while simultaneously recognizing its inherent irrationality and wanting it to go away?

I've enjoyed my time abroad, from living in rural China to eating tarantula legs prepared by tribal South Americans to holding dialogue with elders in remote Afghan villages. Nonetheless, I'm ready for robots to take over and rule the world with unbiased rationality and consistency.

That is precisely why I suggested preservation of cultures while moving on to a more homogenous society. I think it is possible, and I think future generations would be glad we did.

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09-05-2017, 08:01 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(09-05-2017 07:43 AM)abaris Wrote:  
(09-05-2017 07:06 AM)Dom Wrote:  People don't just rally. They rally when they see a solution to something they feel miserable about in their real, individual life story.

Yeah, that's when sentiments can be exploited or led to follow a constructive route. Nationalism always exploited people. People want to lead a good life, and as long as that works out, traditions, nations or race take the backseat.

Where we differ is that traditions or purity of culture aren't a natural fallback point for people. The disenfranchised dream of a better life. A life without worrying about how to pay the next rent and the bills. They may dream about better times, when they weren't neck deep in that mess, but that doesn't automatically lead to a fallback on something that only existed on a regional level at best. Traditions and cultures are very different even within certain countries. Apart from multiculturalism always having been a part of many nations. Due to either colonialism and the influx of people coming from these (former) colonies or the multi ethnic nature of the state. People are kicked into a hateful frenzy by the ones changing a political dime on the backs of their misery. Right now there's noone taking them by the hand to show them a more constructive approach.

In your view, people would nilly willy pick up and move to another country and leave all of their traditions and cultures behind because they would have more material goods. But this is not the case. Try living in another country. No matter how well you do financially, you will be drawn to people from your country of origin, and you will share traditions with them. You underestimate our instinctive resistance to change. When you have a conflict between survival and tradition, survival wins, but tradition becomes the next focus once survival is secured. When survival works, tradition rules.

No matter how beneficial the influx of new people can be to an economy, the reaction of the native people will be rejection based on fear of loss of survival and tradition. And with tradition I include religion, morals and culture, they are one and the same.

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09-05-2017, 08:40 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(09-05-2017 08:01 AM)Dom Wrote:  No matter how beneficial the influx of new people can be to an economy, the reaction of the native people will be rejection based on fear of loss of survival and tradition. And with tradition I include religion, morals and culture, they are one and the same.

First, Europe looked a whole lot differently only a century ago than it looks now. People mingled, often within the same country including an abundance of different ethnicities. I'm a mixture of Hungarian, Czech, jewish and German. Many others have different family ties. In Northern Germany there's a very strong french element that still is mirrored in their last names at the very least. That's due to a large influx of Hugenottes after they had to leave France.

There's also the cultural element, which, as I said, is purely regional. Formed over centuries and very different, even some hundreds of kilometers apart. Bavarian traditions have nothing in common with traditions at the German North Sea coast. Bavarians have much more in common with the ihabitants of upper Austria, since their ancestry, dialect and traditions are related. The inhabitants of Vorarlberg have much more in common with the people in Switzerland than they have with the east of their own country. The traditions as well as the language are a mirror of that. Switzerland in itself is divided between four different ethnicities with different cultural and social traditions. So is Belgium, for that matter. Spain, another perfect example, the UK, Italy. And that's not even counting the ethnic minorities, going back centuries, who, for some reason moved into a certain region because they were invited by the then ruling lord of the land.

It's not about moving willy nilly to another country, it's about accepting that migration always was a way of life and part of what we all are. I would feel just as culturally strange if I moved just 600 kilometer west, within my own country, as I would moving to the UK. If one were to fall back on one's own traditions, it would be purely regional, since these are the people, the dialect and the customs everyone has grown up with. Everything else is just an artificial clamp. A flag, legislations, constitutions that are used by some to create the ghost of a national identity when in truth there are only regional identities.

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09-05-2017, 09:21 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(09-05-2017 08:40 AM)abaris Wrote:  in truth there are only regional identities.

I am talking about culture, so yes, I agree.

Tradition is repetition. Repetition allows attempts to create patterns. Patterns are what intelligence is ultimately based on. We seek patterns. We seek repetition.

We create rituals that give us a warm, fuzzy feeling. For a while, we can be in a cocoon that cradles us safely. Whether it's church, or a family holiday, or a morning ritual in your bathroom, or comfort food, or whatever you have been exposed to on a regular, repeating basis, becomes your safe place. (This is how indoctrination works. We are all indoctrinated - just in different ways)

Culture is such a safe space. The traditions provide the repeating pattern and warm, fuzzy feelings. Rituals are safe havens (OCD is just too much of that in a person's make up).

Take that away, and it becomes a grieving matter. Something very important to us has been ripped from our lives. Our brains continue to go there. The lack of this important part of us continues to cause emotional displacement.

The immigrant suffers from this big time. The native is scared they might be equally displaced.

That's how I see this whole thing.

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15-05-2017, 07:16 AM
RE: Tradition, religion, terrorism and nationalism
(09-05-2017 07:20 AM)yakherder Wrote:  Is it possible to enjoy something, find it interesting, and be glad that it existed (quaint, ancient cultures, or even different modern cultures) while simultaneously recognizing its inherent irrationality and wanting it to go away?

I've enjoyed my time abroad, from living in rural China to eating tarantula legs prepared by tribal South Americans to holding dialogue with elders in remote Afghan villages. Nonetheless, I'm ready for robots to take over and rule the world with unbiased rationality and consistency.

Well, sure, as long as they're not foreign robots. Angry

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