Traditional Chinese Medicine
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29-04-2016, 04:36 PM
Traditional Chinese Medicine
Anyone here know much about TCM?

I'm married to a Chinese lady. Her parents are staying with us at the moment. In the few times they choose to speak English, they sometimes mention garbage about Heat and Cold of the body. I've told them that TCM has no science behind it.

Talking to my wife, she chooses to believe in it (but thankfully we go to a real doctor when the kids are sick). Thinks I am disrespectful and close minded for not respecting their beliefs.

I've taken a look at TCM in Wiki which is pretty scathing about it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditiona...e_medicine
Quote:Scientific investigation has found no histological or physiological evidence for traditional Chinese concepts such as qi, meridians, and acupuncture points.

Quote:A Nature editorial described TCM as "fraught with pseudoscience", and said that the most obvious reason why it hasn't delivered many cures is that the majority of its treatments have no logical mechanism of action

Quote:In 1950, Chairman Mao Zedong made a speech in support of traditional Chinese medicine which was influenced by political necessity.[11] Zedong believed he and the Chinese Communist Party should promote traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) but he did not personally believe in TCM and he didn't use it.[11] In 1952, the president of the Chinese Medical Association said that, "This One Medicine, will possess a basis in modern natural sciences, will have absorbed the ancient and the new, the Chinese and the foreign, all medical achievements—and will be China’s New Medicine!

And some other articles
http://theconversation.com/does-traditio...ystem-6166
Quote:Among traditional Chinese medicine practitioners to be registered are those who provide Chinese medical diagnosis, dispense Chinese herbs and perform acupuncture. All three components of this practice have serious flaws, being based on non-existent energies (Yin and Yang), non-existent bodily structures (meridiens) and on principles of disease diagnosis based on the imbalance of five non-existent elements. It is therefore doubtful whether such practitioners are able to make correct and safe diagnoses

Seems to me TCM is pretty much like religion, made up of nonsensical terms and concepts. Elaborate stories and rules in order to make people think there is something complex and important to it, and for them to seek advice from "experts" or "authorities" in the field.

Chines take it up because it is promoted by their government who want to maintain a Chinese identity and won't want to follow what is perceived to be "western" practices.

Some Westerners resort to it because they are disallusioned by Big Pharma, or doctors subscribing big bags of pills for all doctor visits. Or perhaps desperate because there are no known cures to their ailments.
The consequences are, of course, that millions of people are getting very poor medical treatment, and also that many species of animals are being driven to extinction due to their body parts being part of a TCM medicine.
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29-04-2016, 06:16 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
Turner Classic Movies?

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

Alouette, je te plumerai.
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29-04-2016, 06:34 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
Western medicine is always looking for a mechanism of action for the drug. TCM is more interested in whether the treatment has worked or not for like over 5000 years. Western medical researchers are taking a renewed interest in TCM. Why? They're looking for the mechanisms of action of course.

#sigh
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29-04-2016, 06:57 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
(29-04-2016 06:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Western medicine is always looking for a mechanism of action for the drug. TCM is more interested in whether the treatment has worked or not for like over 5000 years. Western medical researchers are taking a renewed interest in TCM. Why? They're looking for the mechanisms of action of course.

There's no clinical evidence that any of it even works. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-04-2016, 07:01 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
(29-04-2016 06:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 06:34 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Western medicine is always looking for a mechanism of action for the drug. TCM is more interested in whether the treatment has worked or not for like over 5000 years. Western medical researchers are taking a renewed interest in TCM. Why? They're looking for the mechanisms of action of course.

There's no clinical evidence that any of it even works. Drinking Beverage

When I search for "traditional chinese medicine" on pubmed I get 41,167 results. Don't seem like woo to me with that many refereed research papers.

#sigh
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29-04-2016, 08:32 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
I lived in China for about 4 years with my now ex-wife, a Chinese countryside girl, spending time both at her rural hometown near Yancheng as well as at Zhejiang University where I was going to school in Hangzhou. By the time I went back to the states, I was just about sick of Chinese superstition, to put it lightly.

It permeates everything. Even the med school educated doctors at modern hospitals prescribe both Western and Chinese medicine or, more often, a combination of the two. That honestly didn't bother me. Whether medically valid or not, half the stuff they'd give me was basically just really, really strong tree bark tea or something. I figured if nothing else, it had a high nutrient value.

It was the random shit like cold water being bad for me that started to get to me. Nothing like being in sub tropical Hangzhou during the summer in the middle of a scheduled power conservation blackout (no AC) and I open the fridge in the hopes that the water bottle I hid in there is still cold and my wife's mother sees me and she's like "OMG don't drink that, it'll upset your stomach!"

And even otherwise well educated people, such as my western classmates at the university where I was taking Chinese classes, would have perfectly reasonable conversations about the vast majority of subjects, but the second you start talking about acupuncture or qi (as in the undefined magical force that allows monks to break shit), suddenly their brains turn off and they jump into all the BS head first. I knew a number of westerners, in fact, who were there as part of a 1 year study program for their Chinese Medicine degrees which they were otherwise earning back home.

'Murican Canadian
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29-04-2016, 08:37 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
(29-04-2016 07:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 06:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  There's no clinical evidence that any of it even works. Drinking Beverage

When I search for "traditional chinese medicine" on pubmed I get 41,167 results. Don't seem like woo to me with that many refereed research papers.

But does that mean it works? Or just that there is a lot of interest in investigating it?

You can always eat the root, but if you can get the active ingredient that actually works in a controlled, measurable, and purified form in a pill? The pill is the better option. But someone still needs to look at the roots to see if there is anything worth distilling.

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29-04-2016, 08:41 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
(29-04-2016 08:32 PM)yakherder Wrote:  And even otherwise well educated people, such as my western classmates at the university where I was taking Chinese classes, would have perfectly reasonable conversations about the vast majority of subjects, but the second you start talking about acupuncture ...

My Aetna plan covers acupuncture if it is performed by a board certified physician. Can't be all woo if Aetna covers it.

#sigh
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29-04-2016, 08:44 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
(29-04-2016 08:41 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 08:32 PM)yakherder Wrote:  And even otherwise well educated people, such as my western classmates at the university where I was taking Chinese classes, would have perfectly reasonable conversations about the vast majority of subjects, but the second you start talking about acupuncture ...

My Aetna plan covers acupuncture if it is performed by a board certified physician. Can't be all woo if Aetna covers it.

If it didn't originate in 'murika, it ain't science. Drinking Beverage

'Murican Canadian
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29-04-2016, 08:52 PM
RE: Traditional Chinese Medicine
(29-04-2016 08:37 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(29-04-2016 07:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  When I search for "traditional chinese medicine" on pubmed I get 41,167 results. Don't seem like woo to me with that many refereed research papers.

But does that mean it works? Or just that there is a lot of interest in investigating it?

You can always eat the root, but if you can get the active ingredient that actually works in a controlled, measurable, and purified form in a pill? The pill is the better option. But someone still needs to look at the roots to see if there is anything worth distilling.

I think that is what they are doing. Western medicine is to the point where it can identify and isolate specific mechanisms of action for TCM ingredients. Why would they do this? If they didn't think there was money in it by formulating a new pill they wouldn't.

#sigh
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