Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
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24-03-2017, 09:26 AM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
Despite some words/sayings that I personally wouldn't use, I do see Muffs point on this.

I recall a similar "controversy" at a recent Olympic game when a women had won a race, but was later found to have high testosterone levels. [I may be wrong but I think she may have officially been a hermaphrodite].

Personally, I'm on board with having all sports being "mixed", although how that actually works in practice I'm not sure. In my mind at least women and men are equally good at anything they set their minds upon, so don't see why that would be a massive issue. Some sports may end up being more male or female than others, but having the choice to compete in whatever you like should always be an option.

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24-03-2017, 09:42 AM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
(22-03-2017 07:03 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-03-2017 11:07 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  I wonder how the olympics will deal with this issue in the coming years.

They're having to deal with it now with the likes of sprinters Caster Semenya and Dutee Chand who have hyperandrogenism with natural testosterone levels 15-20 times that of a normal female. These women aren't cheating or juicing, they just have a genetic advantage for their chosen sport - Understanding the Controversy Over Caster Semenya.

There are some Norwegians who have a genetic defect which makes it so their blood carries as much as 50% more oxygen than normal. (Check out how many of the VO2 max records are held by Norwegians). This obviously gives them a competitive advantage in endurance sports like cross country skiing. Should they be banned from competing? The IOC doesn't think so. But they made Dutee Chand take testosterone lowering drugs in order to compete.

I have always wondered about Florence Griffith Joyner. I don't remember that there was much focus on hyperandrogenism back then. But I wouldn't be surprised if she had it. Though her sudden and premature death could also support the juicing theory.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
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24-03-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
(24-03-2017 09:26 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Despite some words/sayings that I personally wouldn't use, I do see Muffs point on this.

I recall a similar "controversy" at a recent Olympic game when a women had won a race, but was later found to have high testosterone levels. [I may be wrong but I think she may have officially been a hermaphrodite].

Personally, I'm on board with having all sports being "mixed", although how that actually works in practice I'm not sure. In my mind at least women and men are equally good at anything they set their minds upon, so don't see why that would be a massive issue. Some sports may end up being more male or female than others, but having the choice to compete in whatever you like should always be an option.

It was Caster Semenya, and she qualified under the Olympic rules to run the race as a woman. It was only after she blew everyone away that suddenly people started shouting about her testosterone levels.

It is rather not fun, because you can't actually have an open-to-anyone race that women in general will do well in. Fact of life. Men as a rule are stronger. That's biology. Certainly there are many female athletes who can outcompete all but the strongest men, but they're very few by comparison to the number of men who compete at their same level. So I can see why you would want to have male and female categories for your sporting events. But then there's this whole *bloody* issue over who gets to compete as a female.

Personally I'd leave it up to the individual. If you think you're female, compete as a female. Problem immediately arises though, that if there's prize money involved, or money in general, then... people are gonna cheat. It's natural. So then you get the ongoing fuckup that is IAAF gender testing and rules and all sorts of bullshit.

It's rather sad, 'cos sport isn't supposed to be legalistic. It's just supposed to be entertainment (for those who watch) and fun and satisfying for those who compete.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-03-2017, 09:53 AM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
(24-03-2017 09:48 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(24-03-2017 09:26 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  Despite some words/sayings that I personally wouldn't use, I do see Muffs point on this.

I recall a similar "controversy" at a recent Olympic game when a women had won a race, but was later found to have high testosterone levels. [I may be wrong but I think she may have officially been a hermaphrodite].

Personally, I'm on board with having all sports being "mixed", although how that actually works in practice I'm not sure. In my mind at least women and men are equally good at anything they set their minds upon, so don't see why that would be a massive issue. Some sports may end up being more male or female than others, but having the choice to compete in whatever you like should always be an option.

It was Caster Semenya, and she qualified under the Olympic rules to run the race as a woman. It was only after she blew everyone away that suddenly people started shouting about her testosterone levels.

It is rather not fun, because you can't actually have an open-to-anyone race that women in general will do well in. Fact of life. Men as a rule are stronger. That's biology. Certainly there are many female athletes who can outcompete all but the strongest men, but they're very few by comparison to the number of men who compete at their same level. So I can see why you would want to have male and female categories for your sporting events. But then there's this whole *bloody* issue over who gets to compete as a female.

Personally I'd leave it up to the individual. If you think you're female, compete as a female. Problem immediately arises though, that if there's prize money involved, or money in general, then... people are gonna cheat. It's natural. So then you get the ongoing fuckup that is IAAF gender testing and rules and all sorts of bullshit.

It's rather sad, 'cos sport isn't supposed to be legalistic. It's just supposed to be entertainment (for those who watch) and fun and satisfying for those who compete.

There is a British stand up comedian, [Lee Evans for those interested], who said:

"They wanna cheat? Let them, it'd be more entertaining that way. You'd get the hop, skip and....where the fuck did he go?"

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24-03-2017, 10:01 AM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
Look, Muffs- you're an asshole when you ignore the fact that I've told you how that word makes me feel, and you keep using- not just in general but also specifically directed at me. Fuck you. Don't fucking tell me how I should feel about or react to words. You're free to use them, but you're still a garbage-heap for continuing to do so as far as I'm concerned.

I've already said that maybe I shouldn't have reacted the way I did. But you're continued reaction and breaking down of my prior posts is both unnecessary (especially given the breadth of the conversation that has been had since my first post in the thread) and disingenuous. Moreover, your intense and aggressive OP was what caused me to respond the way I did. Because I've taken shit from people like you all over the internet, and people like you are just annoying.

Also- I NEVER ONCE said you couldn't post your opinion. I never tried to suppress your freeze peeches or whatever. I just said that if you don't care about the issue, then don't have an opinion on it. But if you're going to have an opinion- then fucking do some minimal research it. That's what makes you ignorant is that you thought that somehow your opinion was worth sharing on the subject before you knew what you were talking about. And that may be hypocritical of me because I have opinions on things I'm not fully educated on, too. But I acknowledge and own that. But for you, how everyone else reacts to you is all their fault. Never even partially your responsibility for how you talk to and about other people. No, never. All I've seen from you is blaming other people because you're just "telling it like it is" or whateverthefuck you think you do... sure. In the same way Trump "tells it like it is" and is "brutally honest".

So to answer your question in the OP:
(20-03-2017 10:35 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  So of course it's unfair to exclude her based on her once being a dude. BUT is it?

Short answer- yes. Complex answer- go back and read what I already wrote on the subject. It depends.
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24-03-2017, 11:33 AM (This post was last modified: 24-03-2017 11:37 AM by kim.)
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
Emma is right - it depends - on an awful lot.
As well, Muffs thoughts on the time frame of transition for a person is an interesting idea.

Is it different for someone transitioning at an early age rather than at a later stage of life? Consider It has to be; just as it is different for women being pregnant in their teens & early 20s, is different than being pregnant in the early or mid 40s.
I'd love to see some stats on early transitioning compared to transitioning later in life. Thumbsup

It's always about time, isn't it?

Some thoughts on Caitlyn Jenner...
I don't care all that much about sports. Sort of. I always did enjoy track, because it's a bit more about the personal best rather than besting someone else. Also, it was something I was able to do very well and I didn't have to endure aggressive assholes deliberately throwing balls at me. Dodgy Fucking pieces of shit.

I didn't really give it much of a thought when Bruce Jenner became a woman. I do recall thinking she should have done it much earlier so she could have enjoyed more of a wonderful life without having to hide. Over 50 just seems kind of ... meh, ok. Drinking Beverage

I suspect she had her own mental processing to do and she also possibly felt she had to squeeze it into a more acceptable time. People of an older generation may very often find themselves ensconced in capitulation to previous social "norms" just to survive... until ground can be broken by a few others.

Grabbing the zeitgeist isn't always that easy-peasy. Wink

Just think of it: a person who always felt she was female, competed with people who most likely always felt they were male. This person ends up being the Worlds Greatest Athlete, taking the gold medal in the decathlon at the 1976 Summer Olympics in Montreal.

Let that sink in for a moment.
All that bullshit about, "women just don't have the mental and emotional stamina to compete at the same level as men", instantly grinds everything to a halt.
THIS is a hero.

I'm just glad she finally did it. For her self and for so many others, who have no other way of making people understand them. Now, maybe people won't feel they have to wait for so long to be their true self.

Now is the only time we really have. It's too bad we seem to waste so much it. Shy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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24-03-2017, 12:12 PM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
(24-03-2017 09:53 AM)OakTree500 Wrote:  "They wanna cheat? Let them, it'd be more entertaining that way. You'd get the hop, skip and....where the fuck did he go?"

That's my attitude. I want to see what is humanly possible. Technology, being a human endeavor after all, should be fully utilized to realize this.

So what if a few camel toes go moose knuckle?
[Image: shotput_zpsmq1fqoyi.jpg]

#sigh
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24-03-2017, 12:35 PM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
(24-03-2017 11:33 AM)kim Wrote:  Emma is right - it depends - on an awful lot.
As well, Muffs thoughts on the time frame of transition for a person is an interesting idea.

Is it different for someone transitioning at an early age rather than at a later stage of life? Consider It has to be; just as it is different for women being pregnant in their teens & early 20s, is different than being pregnant in the early or mid 40s.
I'd love to see some stats on early transitioning compared to transitioning later in life. Thumbsup

It's always about time, isn't it?

Some thoughts on Caitlyn Jenner...
I don't care all that much about sports. Sort of. I always did enjoy track, because it's a bit more about the personal best rather than besting someone else. Also, it was something I was able to do very well and I didn't have to endure aggressive assholes deliberately throwing balls at me. Dodgy Fucking pieces of shit.

I didn't really give it much of a thought when Bruce Jenner became a woman. I do recall thinking she should have done it much earlier so she could have enjoyed more of a wonderful life without having to hide. Over 50 just seems kind of ... meh, ok. Drinking Beverage

I suspect she had her own mental processing to do and she also possibly felt she had to squeeze it into a more acceptable time. People of an older generation may very often find themselves ensconced in capitulation to previous social "norms" just to survive... until ground can be broken by a few others.

Grabbing the zeitgeist isn't always that easy-peasy. Wink

Just think of it: a person who always felt she was female, competed with people who most likely always felt they were male. This person ends up being the Worlds Greatest Athlete, taking the gold medal in the decathlon at the 1976 Summer Olympics in Montreal.

Let that sink in for a moment.
All that bullshit about, "women just don't have the mental and emotional stamina to compete at the same level as men", instantly grinds everything to a halt.
THIS is a hero.

I'm just glad she finally did it. For her self and for so many others, who have no other way of making people understand them. Now, maybe people won't feel they have to wait for so long to be their true self.

Now is the only time we really have. It's too bad we seem to waste so much it. Shy

Kids get in the way - I have met several people who were postponing a change. They got married and had kids and then realized that it just wasn't going to work for them. But - they stayed for the kids until the kids are older and more likely to be ok with it.

It can be hard for kids to explain to school buddies how dad is now also a mom...that may be doable in some parts of the country, but others not so much.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-03-2017, 03:30 PM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
I think Earmuffs made a valid point. I do think that if you give too much power to a word that it'll end up giving your enemies too much power. I'm biracial and I've been called obvious slurs from the hillbilly side of my family, so what? I don't get offended they are bigoted people and they don't deserve my time. Muffs however doesn't seem to be bigoted and says it as if the word is nothing horrible at all.

If you know that the person who is saying the slur word doesn't mean it with any sort of malice (like muffs did) then why get upset with them? If there's no discrimination, no anger, no real intent to harm you with said word then why talk about how awful the word is and make your issue seem like it needs special carefulness?

It's why I don't care if someone I care about jokingly or passively says slurs. It doesn't bother me. They don't mean any harm, just like Muffs meant no harm. Overvaluing words and getting offended doesn't make anyone seem more mature or more empathetic. It just causes conflict that is unnecessary and will lead to pointless confrontation and assumptions on both parties.
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24-03-2017, 03:55 PM
RE: Tran's rights and sports and shit and my 4 cents.
(24-03-2017 03:30 PM)Larai19 Wrote:  I think Earmuffs made a valid point. I do think that if you give too much power to a word that it'll end up giving your enemies too much power. I'm biracial and I've been called obvious slurs from the hillbilly side of my family, so what? I don't get offended they are bigoted people and they don't deserve my time. Muffs however doesn't seem to be bigoted and says it as if the word is nothing horrible at all.

If you know that the person who is saying the slur word doesn't mean it with any sort of malice (like muffs did) then why get upset with them? If there's no discrimination, no anger, no real intent to harm you with said word then why talk about how awful the word is and make your issue seem like it needs special carefulness?

It's why I don't care if someone I care about jokingly or passively says slurs. It doesn't bother me. They don't mean any harm, just like Muffs meant no harm. Overvaluing words and getting offended doesn't make anyone seem more mature or more empathetic. It just causes conflict that is unnecessary and will lead to pointless confrontation and assumptions on both parties.

It's not the first time muffs went down that road here. Last time it was nigger. He does have a point, but he is also abrasive as shit and shouldn't be surprised when people sandpaper him in turn.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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