Trans women not 'real women'
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10-03-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(10-03-2017 03:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 03:19 PM)Emma Wrote:  Awww, I don't think Alla is a fuckwit. I disagree with her deeply on a lot of things- especially this issue- but I think she's been kind to me and I don't want to trash that.

thank you Heart Emma Heart. And I don't want to trash anybody.
I am trying to understand something I don't understand yet.
I think it is good to have honest conversation and ask sincere questions.

I give you credit for trying to understand and being open to new ideas, Alla. Good for you Smile
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10-03-2017, 06:01 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(10-03-2017 04:22 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  Since I was a child I knew that I was a girl. It was not because of some kind of state of mind. I looked like a girl, I sounded like a girl, I had female first name. Strangers would call me "a girl". I liked to play with dolls, but I liked to do and I did things boys like to do.

What I want to understand is this: when someone is born with male body parts and something went wrong in the body (RS76 explained) what does it mean "to have woman state of mind"? to feel like a woman?

It means that you have a deep distress at having a body that doesn't match the internal self-image. This distress is called gender dysphoria. It's nearly impossible to put sufficiently into words for someone to really understand this feeling of dysphoria (god knows I and many others have tried). For many of us- to simply be perceived as a woman by others is sufficient to control the dysphoria. For many others, it's important to more fully or partially conform the body whether others see or not. For example- I am on hormone therapy. This treatment both alters my body (in many ways, too- I've got softer skin, lost muscle mass, body and facial fat redistribution, and breast growth... even orgasms feel more like what other women describe as their experience, and more) and my mind (I'm more emotionally agile, feel a deeper connection to my body and my life, feel more peaceful, the dysphoria is much much lessened, etc.). The changes I've experienced in transition are deep and permanent.

I know what it feels like to live as a man, though I always felt divorced from the mental state that so many men seemed to have. I tried so hard to meet the masculine standards of strength and toughness, yadda yadda, but it all felt so fake with me. Ugh. That only makes the dysphoria feel worse.

Untreated dysphoria leads to depression. I lived for a long time in my life as depressed, but unable to recognize it. I just assumed everyone felt that to one degree or another. It wasn't until I was about 30 that I finally learned that it was not normal and that it is treatable. My depression is under control, now. My dysphoria is under control now. I feel like my life is much more under control as well.

There is so much more to be said about it, but I don't have the time and I'm already neglecting work by taking the time to post this, so I apologize if it is an insufficient explanation. Undecided

I did not know this about the orgasms. I learn so many things from this site Wink

Also, had you never mentioned you were trans on here, I never would have known. You look (physically) 100 percent female to me.
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10-03-2017, 06:01 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
I used to work for a woman who had breast cancer several years before I met her. She was the only one out of 14 women who opted for an experimental treatment who was still alive. I don't recall all the details but she didn't have a mastectomy and I don't think she even had a lumpectomy.

Her health was trashed by the treatments she went through. Finally she agreed to genetic testing and it was determined she needed a hysterectomy for prevention of cervical cancer and that she should also have her breasts removed. She ranted and railed that they were trying to 'neuter' her. I remember thinking at the time that it was sort of sad that what she thought most important about herself, what made her who she is, was her breasts and her uterus.

I suppose there are lots of levels of what people think make a woman a woman.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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10-03-2017, 06:38 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
I'd rather die than be castrated.
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11-03-2017, 02:56 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(10-03-2017 04:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  Since I was a child I knew that I was a girl. It was not because of some kind of state of mind. I looked like a girl, I sounded like a girl, I had female first name. Strangers would call me "a girl". I liked to play with dolls, but I liked to do and I did things boys like to do.

What I want to understand is this: when someone is born with male body parts and something went wrong in the body (RS76 explained) what does it mean "to have woman state of mind"? to feel like a woman?

Alla, forget sexual organs for a moment.

Imagine how you felt growing up. You knew you were a girl and everyone who interacted with you perceived you as a girl, and treated you as such. When they did this, you did not question it, your own perception of your gender matched other peoples perceptions.

Now, imagine that you still felt exactly the same way, you knew you were a girl, but everyone who interacted with you perceived you as a boy, and treated you as such. Would you consider yourself male because of how others perceived you, or female because of how you perceived yourself?
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11-03-2017, 06:23 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(10-03-2017 08:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm certainly willing to get into the thick of it when I think someone's opinion is incorrect, or dangerous, or otherwise needs to be challenged...

I'm guessing you missed the emphasized phrase in my only comment directly addressing the male v. female question? And can you legitimately define "getting into the thick of it" as posting crude ad hominems directed at another member, and telling them to "fuck off"?

(10-03-2017 08:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Your scientific background (and mine) are irrelevant, for the purposes of this discussion.

Why then do you specifically mention in your profile that you've a degree in evolutionary biology? This is obviously meant as an appeal to authority. Tsk, tsk.
And no other TTA members do that.

(10-03-2017 08:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  If you are claiming that there is no biological basis for trans people to make the claim that they are in a body that does not match their gender, then you are saying they're just imagining it... that's calling them delusional. I'm sorry you don't like the term. If it's not what you think, you're welcome to clarify your statement, but it's certainly the impression that such a statement gives.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth, and willfully misrepresenting the simple biological statement I made about chromosomes—and which is scientifically true. I not once said anything about transgender people "imagining" their status, or their biology "not matching" their chosen gender, or that they're "delusional", or that I "don't like the term" transgender. These are all your terms, or your false projections onto what I actually think. Please stop putting those terms in my mouth.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-03-2017, 07:06 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(11-03-2017 06:23 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 08:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm certainly willing to get into the thick of it when I think someone's opinion is incorrect, or dangerous, or otherwise needs to be challenged...

I'm guessing you missed the emphasized phrase in my only comment directly addressing the male v. female question? And can you legitimately define "getting into the thick of it" as posting crude ad hominems directed at another member, and telling them to "fuck off"?

No, I just found your unwillingness to learn, from the last time this conversation happened and it was explained to you, irritating enough to swear about.

(11-03-2017 06:23 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 08:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Your scientific background (and mine) are irrelevant, for the purposes of this discussion.

Why then do you specifically mention in your profile that you've a degree in evolutionary biology? This is obviously meant as an appeal to authority. Tsk, tsk.
And no other TTA members do that.

I'll take that down, if you like. But you seem to have missed the key phrase, "for the purposes of this discussion". Had I said that I was an expert in the subject and that one should therefore take my word for it, then that would have been an appeal to authority. My appeal, rather, was to the facts and to the scientific articles that report them, which are easy enough to look up.

Your attempt to deflect by pretending I am positing this information under personal authority is hollow.

(11-03-2017 06:23 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(10-03-2017 08:18 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  If you are claiming that there is no biological basis for trans people to make the claim that they are in a body that does not match their gender, then you are saying they're just imagining it... that's calling them delusional. I'm sorry you don't like the term. If it's not what you think, you're welcome to clarify your statement, but it's certainly the impression that such a statement gives.

Again, you're putting words in my mouth, and willfully misrepresenting the simple biological statement I made about chromosomes—and which is scientifically true.

But it's not "scientifically true" that the old, simplistic explanation of "XY = male, XX = female" holds true in every case, particularly when the development of the phenotype (reading the DNA "instructions") results in something that is different from what the genotype's DNA instructions on the chromosomes originally read, or when there's an error/mutation on the chromosomes themselves.

Simplifying a complex issue in a field like genetics to "XX = female" is as mistaken as saying that European-style Democratic Socialism is the same as communism, or the more common cry from hyperconservatives that anything other than unfettered Capitalism equals communism. It's the kind of oversimplified, knee-jerk approach we'd expect from someone who is only repeating their cultural anti-Soviet programming, and has not read any books on what the words they're using actually mean, or what the shades of grey are in between the extremes. It's black-and-white thinking, which I consider dangerous.

I thought you were better than that, and it pissed me off when I saw you were not.

And again, if the impression I got from your writing is not what you intended to communicate, then you are free to clarify.

(11-03-2017 06:23 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I not once said anything about transgender people "imagining" their status, or their biology "not matching" their chosen gender, or that they're "delusional", or that I "don't like the term" transgender. These are all your terms, or your false projections onto what I actually think. Please stop putting those terms in my mouth.

Then clarify, or choose your words more carefully. The onus of properly communicating one's message is on the one transmitting the message, not on the ones receiving it.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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11-03-2017, 08:05 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(11-03-2017 07:06 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(11-03-2017 06:23 AM)SYZ Wrote:  I not once said anything about transgender people "imagining" their status, or their biology "not matching" their chosen gender, or that they're "delusional", or that I "don't like the term" transgender. These are all your terms, or your false projections onto what I actually think. Please stop putting those terms in my mouth.

Then clarify, or choose your words more carefully. The onus of properly communicating one's message is on the one transmitting the message, not on the ones receiving it.

So you agree that I never used those terms. QED. Thank you.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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11-03-2017, 09:58 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
TO JENNYBEE
Thank you for the credit. But, of course, I want to understand.
I think it is very important that all people understand.
If I understand and I accept this I will be able to explain this to others, to my children, for example.

P.S. Now I will continue to read other posts. I will ask some questions

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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11-03-2017, 10:03 AM (This post was last modified: 11-03-2017 12:09 PM by Anjele.)
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Alla,
I can't say that I understand being trans because I have never had those feelings. All I know is that it's not for me to understand but to accept. There are so many variables in people, in all aspects, that I can never experience all the possibilities. But as long as no one is being harmed and people can be happy...then it's a good thing.

Yes

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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