Trans women not 'real women'
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13-03-2017, 01:28 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2017 01:32 AM by Robvalue.)
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
The thing is, "woman" is an extremely vague term. It has several workable definitions, and none of them are definitive. So it's about being clear what you mean. And it's about definitions being useful in context. Insisting on your personal definition when another one is being used is just going to be a barrier to understanding.

As I said in my video about the transgender toilet law fiasco, I didn't understand about transgender people until fairly recently. I decided to look into it properly, and the penny dropped. I'd had it so wrong for so many years.

However, I'd never felt the need to show any hostility to transgender people. I'd worked alongside one before. I didn't understand, but I didn't need to. It was none of my business. Even if it was a personal choice (which I understand now that it certainly wasn't), then it didn't matter to me anyway. If she was comfortable this way, then I would support her. And I did. I didn't harass her, or assault her with constant inappropriate questions. I just treated her like I would any other human. I didn't insist on calling her "a man".

It's a very primal reaction to find those that are different to be uncomfortable, or even a threat. If you do find yourself feeling this way, you have several options. You can learn more, to understand better. You can accept that these are your own feelings, and your problem. Or you can project your problems onto these people in the form of hostility. If you do the third, you're a primitive savage.

Kudos to Alla for the willingness to learn Smile

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13-03-2017, 07:29 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(11-03-2017 07:56 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Before I ask you to forgive my ignorance, I'd like to remind you the mere absence of knowledge is not the same thing as the inability to learn (that'd be stupid) but...

Are there any surgical procedures that must be performed differently depending on which gender you happen to be cutting into? Obviously, a physical man won't need his ovaries removed Rolleyes but treating a gun shot to the lower abdomen? Are there any situations where medical personnel might need to know whether it is a 'female', or a 'male', that they happen to be about to try and save, or risk doing something terribly wrong?

Like RS said, for the most part they won't need to know. But in my case, it's not like they won't quickly figure it out lol. If operating on my abdomen, then the absence of a womb would be very apparent. And I'm sure they would x-ray or whatever before-hand and know that going in.

(11-03-2017 09:26 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-03-2017 07:23 PM)Emma Wrote:  For reference, my latest Testosterone levels were measured at 21 ng/dL. My highest since starting hormone therapy were 90ng/dL. My current estradiol is measured at 168 pg/mL.

I think I would find your HRT protocol quite fascinating. 21 sounds about right for a woman. My wife comes in at 100 but she is also known to MS-13 as El Puta Loca so she doesn't count. Do you take a 5α-reductase inhibitor like finasteride to keep any testosterone from going to DHT? Do you take an aromatase agonist to promote estrogen conversion?

Currently I am taking 8mg estradiol daily (4mg twice daily), allowing it to dissolve in my mouth. And I take 200mg spironolactone daily (100mg twice daily) as an anti-androgen. I've been on HRT for 2 years as of last month.

I don't take finistride or anything else, really.
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13-03-2017, 09:00 AM (This post was last modified: 13-03-2017 09:12 AM by Emma.)
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(11-03-2017 10:31 AM)Alla Wrote:  I don't know. It is an honest answer.
I want to be more clear: I believe the reason why I knew I was a girl was because I was told that I was a girl. Not because I decided or I felt that I was a girl.

True, but you also do not have an overwhelming dysphoria telling you that you actually are not a girl. You aren't distressed by people seeing you as a girl, therefore there's no real need for you to analyze your own gender. Most people don't ever need to. Which is partially why it's so strange a notion. Also, there's the idea that many (including myself) have- that gender roles ought to just disappear entirely. And by transitioning, in a way, I'm acting in opposition to that belief. But for now, I have no real choice in order to treat my dysphoria. But that's a whole other discussion, I suppose.

(11-03-2017 10:31 AM)Alla Wrote:  So, these are my honest questions:
1)what does it mean to "feel like a girl, or like a woman"? what is scientific explanation of "woman's or man's state of mind"?
2)what makes someone to feel like a girl or like a woman? the same questions about men. I don't want to leave out our wonderful men.

P.S. Probably RS76 answered my questions but I am not sure yet.

1) That's a difficult and complex question- the answer to which will vary for each individual making an attempt an answering. I can tell you that I am supremely discomforted by the idea of being a man. I am most certainly not a man. I do feel as though I want to express myself in more traditionally feminine ways. I am comforted by the idea of being thought of as a woman- therefor I take steps to make it more apparent to people that I am a woman (wearing makeup, women's clothing, carrying a purse, growing my hair, etc... and I found that I actually enjoy these things). I am comforted when people refer to me with feminine pronouns and distressed when people use masculine. That doesn't mean I only do traditionally feminine things, of course. I still have interests that span a variety of subjects- just like any other complex human being.

Here's an interesting article discussing the brains of trans people to help answer the scientific part of your question.

2) I don't know that we have a real answer to that question as yet. This question seems like it's getting at the driving force behind "why are there transgender people". We don't exactly know just yet, but we have clues- as in the link I posted above. And research and study will only help more and more.

And we know that transition is the only effective treatment we currently have for the treatment of dysphoria (those articles you might read saying that it's not effective are way off-base- they are wrong).

BTW, that last link I included was for Gender Analysis- a great website run by Zinnia Jones. She does videos on YouTube and in-depth studies with a very analytical approach on gender issues and trans issues. I highly recommend checking out her YT channel and reading some of her articles on Gender Analysis if you're even more curious.

I first heard about ZJ on a TTA podcast where Seth interviewed her, believe it or not. I think maybe that interview was the first time I really started actually approaching the feelings that I'd had about myself. I'd lived as a very religious person for the first 20+ years of my life, and over the course of my 20's I started backing away from religion, before ultimately becoming an atheist. After losing my faith, I was able to actually start analyzing thoughts and feelings that I'd been repressing for all of my life without so much guilt and self-loathing. Stuff that religion would only condemn me for, but was not sinful or even bad at all. Like being trans, and not being straight.

Also, let me post this video from Kat Blaque regarding trans women being real women.





Her experience is different than mine, but has some similarities. I don't always agree with Kat, but I think much of what she says here is pretty on point. I keep editing, because I keep having more thoughts on this lol. Anyway- credit to all of you who wanted to know about trans issues, and so researched about them from trans sources or asked me directly lol.
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13-03-2017, 11:11 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Awesome job, Emma. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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13-03-2017, 11:22 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Those first 20 years, those are the things that I have the most empathy about. Gay people, gender dysphoric, living under that oppressive miasma of guilt and shame.
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13-03-2017, 02:44 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(13-03-2017 11:22 AM)skyking Wrote:  Those first 20 years, those are the things that I have the most empathy about. Gay people, gender dysphoric, living under that oppressive miasma of guilt and shame.

Yes, absolutely. That doesn't mean I was never happy, or never had a good time, or anything. I was happy. I loved my wife (still do), loved my dogs (still do), loved my family (still do), and my home (still do). There wasn't always this stuff bubbling up to the top. I got really good at repression. That said, I would never want to go back to that.
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13-03-2017, 11:00 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Dear Heart Emma Heart ,I read your answers. You were so helpful and kind. I will explore links you provided. I can't wait to learn more.
May be I will have more questions or may be I will have some thoughts that I would want to share with you. But for now just thank you so much.
XOXO

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I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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13-03-2017, 11:27 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(13-03-2017 02:44 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(13-03-2017 11:22 AM)skyking Wrote:  Those first 20 years, those are the things that I have the most empathy about. Gay people, gender dysphoric, living under that oppressive miasma of guilt and shame.

Yes, absolutely. That doesn't mean I was never happy, or never had a good time, or anything. I was happy. I loved my wife (still do), loved my dogs (still do), loved my family (still do), and my home (still do). There wasn't always this stuff bubbling up to the top. I got really good at repression. That said, I would never want to go back to that.
you seem very positive and make the best of what you have in front of you. That is a lucky trait to have.
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14-03-2017, 12:40 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Ultimately, it doesn't matter what people call you, or even what you call yourself; if your brain has a map of your body that doesn't match the physical body that you have, then that is going to cause distress. I can't possibly imagine how horrible that must be.

It's not a simple matter of the brain just looking at your body and building the map from there.

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14-03-2017, 07:14 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(13-03-2017 11:27 PM)skyking Wrote:  
(13-03-2017 02:44 PM)Emma Wrote:  Yes, absolutely. That doesn't mean I was never happy, or never had a good time, or anything. I was happy. I loved my wife (still do), loved my dogs (still do), loved my family (still do), and my home (still do). There wasn't always this stuff bubbling up to the top. I got really good at repression. That said, I would never want to go back to that.
you seem very positive and make the best of what you have in front of you. That is a lucky trait to have.

Thank you- it helps that I am very lucky and very privileged. I'm white, for one, so that alone means I'm going to be safer than the average trans woman of color- who are the most likely to be murdered simply for being trans. I've got a decent steady job with health insurance- so that means I can afford the health care that I need to make progress of my transition and other health care needs as well as a home and food. I'm not stuck turning to sex work (though some people do prefer that work, no judgement here). Most importantly, I'm exceptionally lucky, as a trans woman who transitioned after marriage, to be able to keep my wife. Even after I've made some really bad choices that have hurt her, she's still with me. And she's amazing. All of this would be overwhelmingly difficult without her. Heart
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