Trans women not 'real women'
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15-03-2017, 12:11 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 12:02 PM)skyking Wrote:  Along those same lines of thought, I have had the unpoplular opinion that Kaitlyn Jenner was a poor spokesperson, and all the gushing about "how brave she was" disgusted me.
She had money and privilge always. I reserve my admiration and support for the regular folks who struggle daily in the face of bigotry and oppression. People who will never be able to afford to look like they feel, who lose thier livelihood and sometimes lose the will to continue in the face of it all.

You are totally correct, with one caveat... I have quite a bit more sympathy for Kaitlyn Jenner because she was forced to maintain a lie all her life, in order to maintain that privilege. That unfortunate social pressure to maintain a lie in the face of their brains screaming that it's all wrong is what causes so many trans persons to develop Dysphoria. In that respect, I am proud of Kaitlyn for potentially risking everything, to come out (the applause and coverage is easy to "predict in hindsight", but it could have easily gone the other way in our fickle culture) as her true self.

What a choice it must be, to face internal pain so overwhelming it qualifies as a DSM entry, or else to risk everything our culture (unfairly) grants to certain members of this society but snatches away just as quickly. No

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-03-2017, 12:18 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
I see your caveat but I don't think that is unique to her. Many just give up life entirely, the task is insurmountable. No way to make a living, no way to keep living the lie.
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15-03-2017, 12:50 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 11:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  That's a fascinating article (and video), SYZ. Good find!

I certainly agree that it's a ridiculous question to ask if trans women "really" are women, in terms of privilege, because male privilege is not about checking/confirming one's genitals any more than it is for other types of (cis) men who don't fit the standard male archetypes that get handed that privilege. We see it in effeminate gay men, in men who are particularly nerdy, and so on... they are denied the privilege in many, if not most ways, if they fail to conform to the binary gender "program". To claim that there is some point where a trans woman who has not fully "come out" is benefiting from male privilege is to ignore what we see in the other instances, sadly. Sad

As bad as things are for cis women in our culture (and worse in others), I'd say that given the statistics I've seen for both groups, most trans women would give anything to rise to the level of oppression faced by their cis female counterparts. From what I can tell, the end goal of a trans rights activist is to see the day when the horrible double-standards and other negative conditions too often faced by females in western culture is something they can hope to attain, compared to the way it is for trans persons, here. [Edit: In other words, "We just want to finally be treated like normal women... THEN we'll deal with how bad conditions are for normal women, here".]

So the question, to me, isn't whether or not trans women have the right to speak of privilege as feminists... but whether cis feminists should have to "pass muster" according to trans feminists before they get to speak of anything like oppression.

(To be clear, I am in no way saying that it's okay that, in our culture, anyone has more privilege than anyone else, or that it's expected that things should be bad for any group. Never. I am simply amazed that a group with more privileges than the trans community seems to be making it an issue of whether the trans women somehow qualify to speak on "real" oppression, when I think if there should be an arbitration, it should be in the other direction. End of Cis-White-Male-Opinion™ on subject.)

I'm hesitant to agree wholly, here, RS. Mostly because, while trans women are terribly oppressed, women at large have been oppressed for so long in the history of humanity that the greatest goal is to end this oppression entirely. In doing so, trans women as well as both cis and trans men will all benefits along with cis women.

The unfair and oppressive standards of masculinity for men stem from a misogynistic world view.

I feel like comparing who has it worse right now is an invitation to the oppression Olympics wherein no one wins. I know it's the point, but it's the same thing (just opposite sides) that Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is saying, and it's a limp and ineffectual argument, ultimately. Because no matter how hard I have it, there's always someone who has it worse- whether cis or trans... and chances are, it's a cis woman that has it worse than me somewhere in the world.

So I'm careful about the idea of saying that I have it worse than any other woman. I face a great many unceasing challenges, and so do so many of my trans sisters. And so do my cis sisters. And the only way we end the oppression is to do so for all of us.

(15-03-2017 12:02 PM)skyking Wrote:  Along those same lines of thought, I have had the unpoplular opinion that Kaitlyn Jenner was a poor spokesperson, and all the gushing about "how brave she was" disgusted me.
She had money and privilge always. I reserve my admiration and support for the regular folks who struggle daily in the face of bigotry and oppression. People who will never be able to afford to look like they feel, who lose thier livelihood and sometimes lose the will to continue in the face of it all.

This is certainly not an uncommon opinion in the trans community. Jenner has not been great for us. There have been some benefits, but overall, she's probably harmed the community more than helped.
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15-03-2017, 12:56 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 12:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:02 PM)skyking Wrote:  Along those same lines of thought, I have had the unpoplular opinion that Kaitlyn Jenner was a poor spokesperson, and all the gushing about "how brave she was" disgusted me.
She had money and privilge always. I reserve my admiration and support for the regular folks who struggle daily in the face of bigotry and oppression. People who will never be able to afford to look like they feel, who lose thier livelihood and sometimes lose the will to continue in the face of it all.

You are totally correct, with one caveat... I have quite a bit more sympathy for Kaitlyn Jenner because she was forced to maintain a lie all her life, in order to maintain that privilege. That unfortunate social pressure to maintain a lie in the face of their brains screaming that it's all wrong is what causes so many trans persons to develop Dysphoria. In that respect, I am proud of Kaitlyn for potentially risking everything, to come out (the applause and coverage is easy to "predict in hindsight", but it could have easily gone the other way in our fickle culture) as her true self.

What a choice it must be, to face internal pain so overwhelming it qualifies as a DSM entry, or else to risk everything our culture (unfairly) grants to certain members of this society but snatches away just as quickly. No

I still vividly remember when the gossip mags in the grocery store checkout started grabbing headlines about her being a "transexual". It was happening right as I was starting my transition. I remember standing in line at a Publix and seeing the mags. Then an old lady lined up behind me and gasped and then sneered at the magazine cover. Then pointed to her friend and laughed. I felt both so angry and hurt at the same time for her, and for me- knowing that I had that to look forward to.

Our culture as a whole handled it well, but there are certainly some vocal and ignorant holdouts.
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15-03-2017, 01:02 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 12:50 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 11:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  That's a fascinating article (and video), SYZ. Good find!

I certainly agree that it's a ridiculous question to ask if trans women "really" are women, in terms of privilege, because male privilege is not about checking/confirming one's genitals any more than it is for other types of (cis) men who don't fit the standard male archetypes that get handed that privilege. We see it in effeminate gay men, in men who are particularly nerdy, and so on... they are denied the privilege in many, if not most ways, if they fail to conform to the binary gender "program". To claim that there is some point where a trans woman who has not fully "come out" is benefiting from male privilege is to ignore what we see in the other instances, sadly. Sad

As bad as things are for cis women in our culture (and worse in others), I'd say that given the statistics I've seen for both groups, most trans women would give anything to rise to the level of oppression faced by their cis female counterparts. From what I can tell, the end goal of a trans rights activist is to see the day when the horrible double-standards and other negative conditions too often faced by females in western culture is something they can hope to attain, compared to the way it is for trans persons, here. [Edit: In other words, "We just want to finally be treated like normal women... THEN we'll deal with how bad conditions are for normal women, here".]

So the question, to me, isn't whether or not trans women have the right to speak of privilege as feminists... but whether cis feminists should have to "pass muster" according to trans feminists before they get to speak of anything like oppression.

(To be clear, I am in no way saying that it's okay that, in our culture, anyone has more privilege than anyone else, or that it's expected that things should be bad for any group. Never. I am simply amazed that a group with more privileges than the trans community seems to be making it an issue of whether the trans women somehow qualify to speak on "real" oppression, when I think if there should be an arbitration, it should be in the other direction. End of Cis-White-Male-Opinion™ on subject.)

I'm hesitant to agree wholly, here, RS. Mostly because, while trans women are terribly oppressed, women at large have been oppressed for so long in the history of humanity that the greatest goal is to end this oppression entirely. In doing so, trans women as well as both cis and trans men will all benefits along with cis women.

The unfair and oppressive standards of masculinity for men stem from a misogynistic world view.

I feel like comparing who has it worse right now is an invitation to the oppression Olympics wherein no one wins. I know it's the point, but it's the same thing (just opposite sides) that Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is saying, and it's a limp and ineffectual argument, ultimately. Because no matter how hard I have it, there's always someone who has it worse- whether cis or trans... and chances are, it's a cis woman that has it worse than me somewhere in the world.

So I'm careful about the idea of saying that I have it worse than any other woman. I face a great many unceasing challenges, and so do so many of my trans sisters. And so do my cis sisters. And the only way we end the oppression is to do so for all of us.

(15-03-2017 12:02 PM)skyking Wrote:  Along those same lines of thought, I have had the unpoplular opinion that Kaitlyn Jenner was a poor spokesperson, and all the gushing about "how brave she was" disgusted me.
She had money and privilge always. I reserve my admiration and support for the regular folks who struggle daily in the face of bigotry and oppression. People who will never be able to afford to look like they feel, who lose thier livelihood and sometimes lose the will to continue in the face of it all.

This is certainly not an uncommon opinion in the trans community. Jenner has not been great for us. There have been some benefits, but overall, she's probably harmed the community more than helped.

I'm clearly not inside or in the know. It is reassuring to know my gut feeling was not unwarranted.
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15-03-2017, 02:12 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 12:50 PM)Emma Wrote:  I'm hesitant to agree wholly, here, RS. Mostly because, while trans women are terribly oppressed, women at large have been oppressed for so long in the history of humanity that the greatest goal is to end this oppression entirely. In doing so, trans women as well as both cis and trans men will all benefits along with cis women.

The unfair and oppressive standards of masculinity for men stem from a misogynistic world view.

I feel like comparing who has it worse right now is an invitation to the oppression Olympics wherein no one wins. I know it's the point, but it's the same thing (just opposite sides) that Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is saying, and it's a limp and ineffectual argument, ultimately. Because no matter how hard I have it, there's always someone who has it worse- whether cis or trans... and chances are, it's a cis woman that has it worse than me somewhere in the world.

So I'm careful about the idea of saying that I have it worse than any other woman. I face a great many unceasing challenges, and so do so many of my trans sisters. And so do my cis sisters. And the only way we end the oppression is to do so for all of us.

You are 100% right. I was being "tongue-in-cheek" about who checks with whom about the "right" to speak about privilege or the lack thereof. That's why I said this, at the end:

(15-03-2017 11:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  (To be clear, I am in no way saying that it's okay that, in our culture, anyone has more privilege than anyone else, or that it's expected that things should be bad for any group. Never. [...] )

And I certainly agree with your assessment that men suffer just as much from the masculinity-and-strict-gender-roles framework in which we are granted our privilege, and that while it is rarely our physical person in danger (the way it too often is for women and the LGBTQ+), we would benefit just as much from gender equality. I wish more people could see that.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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15-03-2017, 02:34 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 02:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:50 PM)Emma Wrote:  I'm hesitant to agree wholly, here, RS. Mostly because, while trans women are terribly oppressed, women at large have been oppressed for so long in the history of humanity that the greatest goal is to end this oppression entirely. In doing so, trans women as well as both cis and trans men will all benefits along with cis women.

The unfair and oppressive standards of masculinity for men stem from a misogynistic world view.

I feel like comparing who has it worse right now is an invitation to the oppression Olympics wherein no one wins. I know it's the point, but it's the same thing (just opposite sides) that Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is saying, and it's a limp and ineffectual argument, ultimately. Because no matter how hard I have it, there's always someone who has it worse- whether cis or trans... and chances are, it's a cis woman that has it worse than me somewhere in the world.

So I'm careful about the idea of saying that I have it worse than any other woman. I face a great many unceasing challenges, and so do so many of my trans sisters. And so do my cis sisters. And the only way we end the oppression is to do so for all of us.

You are 100% right. I was being "tongue-in-cheek" about who checks with whom about the "right" to speak about privilege or the lack thereof. That's why I said this, at the end:

(15-03-2017 11:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  (To be clear, I am in no way saying that it's okay that, in our culture, anyone has more privilege than anyone else, or that it's expected that things should be bad for any group. Never. [...] )

And I certainly agree with your assessment that men suffer just as much from the masculinity-and-strict-gender-roles framework in which we are granted our privilege, and that while it is rarely our physical person in danger (the way it too often is for women and the LGBTQ+), we would benefit just as much from gender equality. I wish more people could see that.

Ahh, gotcha- I missed where you'd said that. Sorry! Smile
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15-03-2017, 03:12 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 12:56 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You are totally correct, with one caveat... I have quite a bit more sympathy for Kaitlyn Jenner because she was forced to maintain a lie all her life, in order to maintain that privilege. That unfortunate social pressure to maintain a lie in the face of their brains screaming that it's all wrong is what causes so many trans persons to develop Dysphoria. In that respect, I am proud of Kaitlyn for potentially risking everything, to come out (the applause and coverage is easy to "predict in hindsight", but it could have easily gone the other way in our fickle culture) as her true self.

What a choice it must be, to face internal pain so overwhelming it qualifies as a DSM entry, or else to risk everything our culture (unfairly) grants to certain members of this society but snatches away just as quickly. No

I still vividly remember when the gossip mags in the grocery store checkout started grabbing headlines about her being a "transexual". It was happening right as I was starting my transition. I remember standing in line at a Publix and seeing the mags. Then an old lady lined up behind me and gasped and then sneered at the magazine cover. Then pointed to her friend and laughed. I felt both so angry and hurt at the same time for her, and for me- knowing that I had that to look forward to.

Our culture as a whole handled it well, but there are certainly some vocal and ignorant holdouts.


Yes, my daughter probably reacted to the Kaitlyn Jenner news, but I can't honestly say how or what was going on inside of her. She watched a little bit of it on the tv while passing through the front room. I didn't delve much into her emotions on the subject. I think there comes a time when family members need to just be at peace with the subject otherwise it's constantly a "thing". She'd transitioned about three years before the Kaitlyn Jenner story broke.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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15-03-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 12:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You are totally correct, with one caveat... I have quite a bit more sympathy for Kaitlyn Jenner because she was forced to maintain a lie all her life, in order to maintain that privilege.

I haven't followed her story much. Is it true that she felt that way her entire life even when she was like the best male athlete on the planet? (I still got a Wheaties box with the gold medal decathelete on it, wonder if it's worth anything?) Do most gender identity questions appear early on? Or is it possible for someone to not realize it until much later in life?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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15-03-2017, 03:37 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(15-03-2017 03:21 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(15-03-2017 12:11 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You are totally correct, with one caveat... I have quite a bit more sympathy for Kaitlyn Jenner because she was forced to maintain a lie all her life, in order to maintain that privilege.

I haven't followed her story much. Is it true that she felt that way her entire life even when she was like the best male athlete on the planet? (I still got a Wheaties box with the gold medal decathelete on it, wonder if it's worth anything?) Do most gender identity questions appear early on? Or is it possible for someone to not realize it until much later in life?

It's a common story both for trans people to know early in life or to not realize until later in life. Neither is more accurate a picture of "the transgender" story than the other, really. It is quite possible for some people to know know until later in life. It happens all the time.

(And I'll make it happen to you, too, if I can get close enough to sneeze on you! Evil_monster )
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