Trans women not 'real women'
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09-03-2017, 06:39 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Every individual makes up her or his own mind. A baby is born. The doctor looks down and see's a penis. It's a boy! 12 years later, "I'm a girl!!!" Well...

I'll drop it after this post because I support transgendered people and I don't want to be too much of an antagonist voice but the "gray area" in this one strikes me as a stretch.
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09-03-2017, 06:41 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Quote:Exceptions to this generalisation can occur in the cases of XX males or XY females, or a genetic association syndrome.

I don't want to disrespect these people.
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09-03-2017, 07:07 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
I'm tired of explaining -- to people who refuse to listen -- that your chromosome set is not what make you male or female. Try listening, this time. Seriously, SYZ, I know you've had this explained to you before... and yet I see you repeating the old "Well if it's got a Y chromosome then it's a duuuude!" argument. Again.

The "broken" instruction set of how to make someone female, absent from the section of the Y, causes a normal hormone cascade during the early-unfolding development phase of an embryo, to go awry. The result of this awry cascade is maleness. It has developed over a long evolutionary history to be the standard form of reproduction in chordates (and a few other types, with strong variances). Part of the cascade change is a change in the balance of hormone levels during the development phase which case the brain to "wire-up" slightly differently, and to make the settings for hormones such as the androgens (e.g. testosterone) to be slightly higher. All of these things, we consider normal because half of the world develops as males, in this way.

But at any point in this series of genetic instructions, developmental cascades, and regulatory hormone balances, any number of things can go wrong, and can be "wired up" in alternate ways. One such way, they have found, is that the portion of the brain that would ordinarily match the rest of the instruction-set (DNA/chromosome) turns out to develop like the other sex's. We have seen this difference in fMRI studies on the subject. We know it's not only in the minds of the people. And we know it's not just the chromosome-set, but a myriad of complex interactions between DNA instructions and the environment in which those instructions are "read" as the embryo develops.

And yet, despite this knowledge, people keep implying it's all in the mind. Why?

We used to tell clinically depressed people that it was all in their heads, too. Same with gays. Why do you think this is any different. Why!?

I'm tired of this shit. Learn the science of it or shut your fucking mouth about it. Otherwise you're no different from the fundamentalist Christians who come here and fuck up everything we know about evolution, to tell us that evo is false because there are no "crocoducks". You sound exactly the fucking same to me right now. However kind your intentions, you're dismissing an entire group of people as delusional, in defiance of everything we've learned in the past few decades.

What a thing to wake up to. Fuck.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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09-03-2017, 07:12 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
I don't proclaim that I understand the whole business, I don't, and it's not for lack of exposure. Living in the SF area for a couple of decades, I have had transgendered friends and neighbors and have spent much time just chatting and playing board games. ( I used to take part in an informal group who hung out and played all kinds of games together). Conversation covered just about everything, including what it felt like to be gay or lesbian or transgendered or a specific gender.

I don't even know what it feels like to be female - I just know what it feels like to be me. My being female felt very different from my mom's experiences. For my mom, being female meant to fit a role in life, that of a mother and housewife. For me, there were choices and I chose a much different life.

I frankly have no idea what makes someone a specific gender. I have never been a "girly girl", but doubtlessly have always been a female. So, what makes a female a female and a male a male (other than physical characteristics)? I don't know.

In any case, I am all for everyone being whatever makes them happy, whether I understand it or not.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2017, 07:18 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 07:07 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm tired of explaining -- to people who refuse to listen -- that your chromosome set is not what make you male or female. Try listening, this time. Seriously, SYZ, I know you've had this explained to you before... and yet I see you repeating the old "Well if it's got a Y chromosome then it's a duuuude!" argument. Again.

The "broken" instruction set of how to make someone female, absent from the section of the Y, causes a normal hormone cascade during the early-unfolding development phase of an embryo, to go awry. The result of this awry cascade is maleness. It has developed over a long evolutionary history to be the standard form of reproduction in chordates (and a few other types, with strong variances). Part of the cascade change is a change in the balance of hormone levels during the development phase which case the brain to "wire-up" slightly differently, and to make the settings for hormones such as the androgens (e.g. testosterone) to be slightly higher. All of these things, we consider normal because half of the world develops as males, in this way.

But at any point in this series of genetic instructions, developmental cascades, and regulatory hormone balances, any number of things can go wrong, and can be "wired up" in alternate ways. One such way, they have found, is that the portion of the brain that would ordinarily match the rest of the instruction-set (DNA/chromosome) turns out to develop like the other sex's. We have seen this difference in fMRI studies on the subject. We know it's not only in the minds of the people. And we know it's not just the chromosome-set, but a myriad of complex interactions between DNA instructions and the environment in which those instructions are "read" as the embryo develops.

And yet, despite this knowledge, people keep implying it's all in the mind. Why?

We used to tell clinically depressed people that it was all in their heads, too. Same with gays. Why do you think this is any different. Why!?

I'm tired of this shit. Learn the science of it or shut your fucking mouth about it. Otherwise you're no different from the fundamentalist Christians who come here and fuck up everything we know about evolution, to tell us that evo is false because there are no "crocoducks". You sound exactly the fucking same to me right now. However kind your intentions, you're dismissing an entire group of people as delusional, in defiance of everything we've learned in the past few decades.

What a thing to wake up to. Fuck.

I fully understand that part. What I don't understand is the feelings of the person. I have exaggerated amounts of empathy and somehow always search for that common nominator so I can truly understand. Most of the time I find it. Here I don't - possibly because I don't understand what makes me different from males. Other than physical attributes.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2017, 07:29 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
In my honest opinion, Jenni Murray has displayed a stunning lack of empathy, intelligence and charity.
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09-03-2017, 08:25 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2017 10:11 AM by jennybee.)
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 07:12 AM)Dom Wrote:  I don't proclaim that I understand the whole business, I don't, and it's not for lack of exposure. Living in the SF area for a couple of decades, I have had transgendered friends and neighbors and have spent much time just chatting and playing board games. ( I used to take part in an informal group who hung out and played all kinds of games together). Conversation covered just about everything, including what it felt like to be gay or lesbian or transgendered or a specific gender.

I don't even know what it feels like to be female - I just know what it feels like to be me. My being female felt very different from my mom's experiences. For my mom, being female meant to fit a role in life, that of a mother and housewife. For me, there were choices and I chose a much different life.

I frankly have no idea what makes someone a specific gender. I have never been a "girly girl", but doubtlessly have always been a female. So, what makes a female a female and a male a male (other than physical characteristics)? I don't know.

In any case, I am all for everyone being whatever makes them happy, whether I understand it or not.

I didn't know you used to live in SF. I live in the SF area currently and have lots of exposure to all different kinds of people, all different ways of life. I love it, makes life so much more interesting. I wish people weren't so threatened by individuality.

I agree with you re: what does it mean to be a woman. Everyone's individual experiences are different, regardless of gender. I'm a girly girl, but I also love hiking, camping, and Krav Maga. Growing up, my dad was very much about treating my brothers and me and my sister the same. There were no gender specific roles in my house.

I can't even begin to understand what it must be like to feel you are born into the wrong body. I think it is incredibly brave to live your life on your own terms--whatever that means to each person. I just wish society would get its head out of its ass and embrace each person's desire to be their own true self.
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09-03-2017, 10:29 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 02:45 AM)ImFred Wrote:  I want to be as kind and supportive of trans people as I can be. I've always loved androgyny and gender bending. I don't want to discriminate in anyway. I don't want to get hung up on a hurtful semantic but still just wanting to be something doesn't make you something you aren't.
It's not at all a matter of wanting to be something. It's not a choice. Transgendered people experience being something no differently than people who experience the gender that matches their biological makeup. Just imagine that you are you exactly as you are now, but suddenly your body switches to the opposite gender, but nothing else changes. That is what transgendered people experience, but without the switching. They have always had this experience.

(09-03-2017 06:39 AM)ImFred Wrote:  Every individual makes up her or his own mind. A baby is born. The doctor looks down and see's a penis. It's a boy! 12 years later, "I'm a girl!!!" Well...
No, it's not nearly that simple.

(09-03-2017 06:39 AM)ImFred Wrote:  I'll drop it after this post because I support transgendered people and I don't want to be too much of an antagonist voice but the "gray area" in this one strikes me as a stretch.
Then, with all due respect, you should educate yourself on the subject before getting involved in it. I'm glad to hear that you want to be supportive though.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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09-03-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 07:07 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm tired of explaining -- to people who refuse to listen -- that your chromosome set is not what make you male or female. Try listening, this time. Seriously, SYZ, I know you've had this explained to you before... and yet I see you repeating the old "Well if it's got a Y chromosome then it's a duuuude!" argument. Again.

The "broken" instruction set of how to make someone female, absent from the section of the Y, causes a normal hormone cascade during the early-unfolding development phase of an embryo, to go awry. The result of this awry cascade is maleness. It has developed over a long evolutionary history to be the standard form of reproduction in chordates (and a few other types, with strong variances). Part of the cascade change is a change in the balance of hormone levels during the development phase which case the brain to "wire-up" slightly differently, and to make the settings for hormones such as the androgens (e.g. testosterone) to be slightly higher. All of these things, we consider normal because half of the world develops as males, in this way.

But at any point in this series of genetic instructions, developmental cascades, and regulatory hormone balances, any number of things can go wrong, and can be "wired up" in alternate ways. One such way, they have found, is that the portion of the brain that would ordinarily match the rest of the instruction-set (DNA/chromosome) turns out to develop like the other sex's. We have seen this difference in fMRI studies on the subject. We know it's not only in the minds of the people. And we know it's not just the chromosome-set, but a myriad of complex interactions between DNA instructions and the environment in which those instructions are "read" as the embryo develops.

And yet, despite this knowledge, people keep implying it's all in the mind. Why?

We used to tell clinically depressed people that it was all in their heads, too. Same with gays. Why do you think this is any different. Why!?

I'm tired of this shit. Learn the science of it or shut your fucking mouth about it. Otherwise you're no different from the fundamentalist Christians who come here and fuck up everything we know about evolution, to tell us that evo is false because there are no "crocoducks". You sound exactly the fucking same to me right now. However kind your intentions, you're dismissing an entire group of people as delusional, in defiance of everything we've learned in the past few decades.

What a thing to wake up to. Fuck.
Thank you for filling in those details RS. I never really looked into it, because I never doubted an individual's sincerity on the subject of sexuality or gender identity.
I knew in my gut that nobody would choose to live such a life in this society of boxes, of black and white. I have nothing but empathy for my fellow beings who struggle to simply BE who they are.
Once I had studied the Kinsey Continuum, I embraced it and applied that kind of thinking to gender identity and indeed, many other things. It all made sense.
My beloved uncle was a Presbyterian minister, an alcoholic, and gay. I did not know the latter things, I only knew that no one was more loving and devoted to his nieces and nephews, my cousins. He was as sweet a man as I have ever known.
I knew he was sad too. That he died alone and unable to share who he was broke my heart, when later my mother revealed the truth.
That sealed it for me. From those days forward I knew that the truth takes on many forms when it comes to people, and to acknowledge each individual's truth was all that I could do.
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09-03-2017, 10:44 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
You're welcome. Smile

That's what my brain is like, pre-coffee. Duck!! (Or crocoduck.)

I actually meant to include more on the genetics and development aspect, about it seeming likely to me that an XX chromosome set could easily contain damaged instructions in the section that covers the brain-wiring portion of development, and have the same effect as the actual "damaged"/missing instruction set we call a Y chromosome, without having the physical effects of the full Y-chromosome-deformity (or what we call a male)...

...but the angrier I am the more verbose I tend to be...which isn't good when you're only half awake and a quarter coherent! So I clipped it back a bit.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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