Trans women not 'real women'
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09-03-2017, 10:46 AM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Snarky much?

Tongue

In all seriousness, it is a sore point for me too. My example above illustrates my sincerity on the subject.
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09-03-2017, 11:50 AM (This post was last modified: 09-03-2017 02:12 PM by Mr. Boston.)
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Here's my take on transsexualism. I think you have the right to consider yourself a gender other than the one you were biologically born with. I'll even say you can be more than one, somewhere in between what most consider the "standard" two, or none at all. I will fight for your right to use whatever bathroom you feel more comfortable using. I will call you by whatever pronoun you prefer. I support your right to marry whomever you want, raise children, be recognized as next of kin if your spouse dies, etc. I will consider the gender of your choice in all measurable ways of both legality and etiquette. You have the right to think of yourself as that gender, and I'll support you in that choice in any way I can.

But you can't dictate to me how I'm required to "see" you at any specific point on the gender spectrum. I will see what I see and react how I react. You have the right to your own expression, I have a right to my own reaction. Most likely I assume I'll be inclined to see you the same way you see yourself, but it's a reflex, it's not a decision. As long as I treat you with the same dignity that any human being deserves, does it matter?
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09-03-2017, 12:11 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Someone define for me what a "real woman" is, and I will find an exception that you cannot deny to every rule you provide.

I'm not going to read the article because I've already read a dozen trash articles just like it about other women trying to set definitions for what a woman is specifically to segment out trans women. But I owe her no justification for my existence or expectation of fair treatment, and I don't particularly wish to relive that assault at this moment.

As a woman who has previously given up the privileges associated with masculinity, I'd venture to say that I know quite well enough of the oppression facing women and will only continue to experience more and more of the oppression directed at women.

Who I dress for is irrelevant. You can't tell me that some cis women don't "dress for men" or whatever bullshit reasoning there is. Some trans women, like myself, dress for themselves. I, just like everyone else who has the luxury of a good deal of choice in clothing, have evolved in the styles that I select for myself.

My private parts do not matter to anyone but myself, my spouse, and my doctors (and only when necessary for them). What the arrangement of my parts was at birth is not relevant to their current configuration, and that is no driver for how I wish to be perceived. Like all people, I ought to be allowed the autonomy over my own body and how it is used in private, and that should not relate to my daily treatment in public.

This shit just makes me angry, because no woman's life experience is identical to another's. No one can set definitions and expect them to hold true for everyone. I think it's about time for people to realize that sex and gender are a bit more complicated than we've always understood and defined them to be.

Angry

Sorry... I'll step down off my soapbox now.
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09-03-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 12:11 PM)Emma Wrote:  ....no woman's life experience is identical to another's. No one can set definitions and expect them to hold true for everyone. I think it's about time for people to realize that sex and gender are a bit more complicated than we've always understood and defined them to be.

There, that's kind of what I meant to address. Personally, other than my physical attributes, I have no idea what makes me female. And, even though I was a tomboy, I always knew I was female and was happy with it.

I am aware of all the physical implications as Rocket described them, but I keep having the feeling that somehow there is something that eludes us. As yet.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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09-03-2017, 12:28 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 12:11 PM)Emma Wrote:  Someone define for me what a "real woman" is, and I will find an exception that you cannot deny to every rule you provide.

I'm not going to read the article because I've already read a dozen trash articles just like it about other women trying to set definitions for what a woman is specifically to segment out trans women. But I owe her no justification for my existence or expectation of fair treatment, and I don't particularly wish to relive that assault at this moment.

As a woman who has previously given up the privileges associated with masculinity, I'd venture to say that I know quite well enough of the oppression facing women and will only continue to experience more and more of the oppression directed at women.

Who I dress for is irrelevant. You can't tell me that some cis women don't "dress for men" or whatever bullshit reasoning there is. Some trans women, like myself, dress for themselves. I, just like everyone else who has the luxury of a good deal of choice in clothing, have evolved in the styles that I select for myself.

My private parts do not matter to anyone but myself, my spouse, and my doctors (and only when necessary for them). What the arrangement of my parts was at birth is not relevant to their current configuration, and that is no driver for how I wish to be perceived. Like all people, I ought to be allowed the autonomy over my own body and how it is used in private, and that should not relate to my daily treatment in public.

This shit just makes me angry, because no woman's life experience is identical to another's. No one can set definitions and expect them to hold true for everyone. I think it's about time for people to realize that sex and gender are a bit more complicated than we've always understood and defined them to be.

Angry

Sorry... I'll step down off my soapbox now.
Well said Emma. Bowing

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09-03-2017, 12:40 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Sorry for what, Emma?
Thank you for sharing your journey here, and I don't mean this thread.
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09-03-2017, 01:11 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 12:40 PM)skyking Wrote:  Sorry for what, Emma?
Thank you for sharing your journey here, and I don't mean this thread.

The "sorry" was for getting all ranty about it lol. And thank you for being understanding and accepting. Smile
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09-03-2017, 02:33 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(09-03-2017 01:11 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(09-03-2017 12:40 PM)skyking Wrote:  Sorry for what, Emma?
Thank you for sharing your journey here, and I don't mean this thread.

The "sorry" was for getting all ranty about it lol. And thank you for being understanding and accepting. Smile

Yeah, the Ranty Soapbox is pretty much my domain.

Well, it's EK's, actually, but he lets me borrow it sometimes. Laugh out load

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09-03-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
Personally, I see it like this:

A person is born male or female depending upon their chromosomes - XX for females, XY for males. (I know RocketSurgeon76 doesn't agree with this, but so what? Our opinions differ on that. So be it.)

In the vast majority of times, one's reproductive paraphernalia is a function of those chromosomes. In some cases, one's equipment doesn't reflect their chromosomal makeup.

All that said, people should be free to choose to present themselves to the world as they see fit. If a male with XY chromosomes wants to dress and comport himself like a female, I have no problem with that. If a woman with a pair of X chromosomes wants to present herself to the world as a man, that's fine too.

People, IMO, should be able to express themselves as they see fit and not have to suffer negative consequences for doing so. Personally, it's not my thing, but I do not - nor does anyone else - have the right to tell anybody how they should present themselves to the world, nor is there any basis for discrimination as a result of that choice.
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09-03-2017, 02:53 PM
RE: Trans women not 'real women'
(08-03-2017 12:58 AM)Aractus Wrote:  I mean no disrespect to the trans community, but the issue of gender is not at all a simple matter. If we had a society in which trans people were treated equally, and felt comfortable with expressing their identities this would be a non-issue. But that isn't the case. I'm reminded of what Senator Abetz correctly pointed out a couple of weeks back: The "Rainbow Flag" is the official flag of a micronation that has declared war on us (the Gay and Lesbian Kingdom of the Coral Sea Islands). And I have to agree with him that displaying that flag given that is repulsive. It doesn't mean I don't think they should have equal rights and opportunities, but once you say you're at war with your country and that is your symbol it's no different to flying a NAZI flag or an ISIL flag in its meaning. Anyway, I will personally never see that flag as representing a neutral stance again.

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(09-03-2017 12:11 PM)Emma Wrote:  My private parts do not matter to anyone but myself


Surely that depends on what you're doing at the time? Blink

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