Transgender Bathrooms?
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04-05-2016, 09:34 AM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
(03-05-2016 10:20 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  
(27-04-2016 01:40 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The religious right has to find something to hate, something to get their panties all in a twist over otherwise they don't know what to do with themselves.

It's also fear-motivated. Transgenderism is a pretty new idea, and the established order says men are men/women are women, and it cannot be more complicated than that. If the established order keeps getting broken down, how will they survive? Tongue

There have been transgender people living among us for many millennium. It's nothing new.

As a fetus is developing, male or female hormones are released which sort of wash over the fetus and influence how the brain develops. Sometimes things don't go right in the development and the opposite hormone are triggered, opposite to what the genitals are, and this influence the development of the brain. Transgender brains resemble the opposite gender is small specific area of the brain. It's far more complicated than my explanation but that's kind of it in a nutshell.

My daughter is transgender. There is absolutely no way in hell she is male. She transitioned at 20 years old and is finally a whole, happy person for the first time in her life. Her only regret is that she didn't transition earlier. Unless someone has raised a transgender child it's difficult to convey what that experience is like.

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He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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04-05-2016, 09:51 AM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
(04-05-2016 09:34 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Unless someone has raised a transgender child it's difficult to convey what that experience is like.

That's understandable. While I understand the concept at a high level, it's not really anything I can personally relate to. I feel sorry for all of their difficulties, but I have no way to compare it to anything I've gone through.
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04-05-2016, 09:53 AM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2016 10:04 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
(04-05-2016 09:34 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  As a fetus is developing, male or female hormones are released which sort of wash over the fetus and influence how the brain develops. Sometimes things don't go right in the development and the opposite hormone are triggered, opposite to what the genitals are, and this influence the development of the brain. Transgender brains resemble the opposite gender is small specific area of the brain. It's far more complicated than my explanation but that's kind of it in a nutshell.

What I don't understand, is thats it's commonly been claimed that gender-identity is a social construct, but when it comes to transgenders, it appears that it's being argued that gender is a biological construct?

I stay out of the policy questions, but I do have trouble with the identity questions here, particularly what seems to be conflicting views.

I'd wonder what aspects of you identity as a woman, do you feel are biologically driven, beyond the physical aspects.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

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04-05-2016, 10:40 AM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
(04-05-2016 09:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  What I don't understand, is thats it's commonly been claimed that gender-identity is a social construct, but when it comes to transgenders, it appears that it's being argued that gender is a biological construct?

I stay out of the policy questions, but I do have trouble with the identity questions here, particularly what seems to be conflicting views.

From my understanding, gender is a social construct. How a person feels in relation to all of this is a biological issue. So, I wouldn't see them in conflict.


(04-05-2016 09:53 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'd wonder what aspects of you identity as a woman, do you feel are biologically driven, beyond the physical aspects.

I know you're not asking me, but really, I don't tend to think about it in terms of that. I am who I am. Who I am doesn't largely seem to run counter to what people expect from me as a male, so I don't really put any conscious thought into it. That being said, there are plenty of things I do that a stereotypical male wouldn't or a stereotypical female would.

I think the take home from this is "people are complex, and trying to shoehorn them into two categories based solely off of their chromosomes often leads to weird results". Bonus points that you can't even actually do that; we just fake it regarding people with X, XXX, XXY, XYY, and any other "non-standard" chromosomes.
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06-05-2016, 02:24 AM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
No one I've spoken to that objects to gender neutral bathroom laws seems to care much about the bathroom choices of actual transgendered people.

A lot of Americans have real hang ups about nudity and it is illegal to be naked in public practically everywhere, including at the beach. About the only place it is legal to be naked in public is inside a bathroom or locker room. The people I've spoken to fear that if having (showing) a penis isn't legally prohibited in women's bathrooms, then adult men will be using high school restrooms to "change into clean underwear", standing around in women's locker rooms toweling their backs for twenty minutes can wag their penis at every woman that comes in, hanging out in the women's communal showers at health clubs, and generally making bathrooms, locker rooms, and showers completely hostile to any woman that doesn't want to be the involuntary recipient of male exhibitionism and voyeurism.

While completely remodeling bathrooms and showers for single occupancy at great expense would address a lot of those concerns, the more likely outcome is that businesses accelerate the trend of eliminating public restrooms entirely. It is already hard to find a public restroom in many places, and in San Francisco the resulting human excrement in the streets and sidewalks is becoming a major problem.

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06-05-2016, 11:11 AM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
(06-05-2016 02:24 AM)djhall Wrote:  No one I've spoken to that objects to gender neutral bathroom laws seems to care much about the bathroom choices of actual transgendered people.

A lot of Americans have real hang ups about nudity and it is illegal to be naked in public practically everywhere, including at the beach. About the only place it is legal to be naked in public is inside a bathroom or locker room.

You've clearly never been to Ashland, OR where they tried to pass a local ordinance prohibiting nudity within 50 feet of an elementary school. It lost overwhelmingly. Another family there with small children complained that their old man neighbor sunbathed nude on his lawn in full wrinkled view of their children. Not a damn thing they could do about it. Plenty of nude beaches around the country as well. Public nudity is tolerated in far more places than you think.

#sigh
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06-05-2016, 01:10 PM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
I really don't care where people pee. Wink I used to go to LGBT dance clubs in college with several of my girlfriends (even though all of us were straight). They had the best music and the most fun people. The bathrooms which were typically male and female on "straight" nights were all switched over to unisex. I never once worried about my safety while I went in to pee.
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06-05-2016, 02:50 PM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
(06-05-2016 01:10 PM)jennybee Wrote:  I really don't care where people pee. Wink I used to go to LGBT dance clubs in college with several of my girlfriends (even though all of us were straight). They had the best music and the most fun people. The bathrooms which were typically male and female on "straight" nights were all switched over to unisex. I never once worried about my safety while I went in to pee.

Back in uni there was only one bathroom. It consisted of a couple of disgusting stalls and a 6 foot tall wall spanning the room as a urinal with a common drain below. It seemed efficient.

#sigh
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06-05-2016, 04:19 PM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
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06-05-2016, 05:00 PM
RE: Transgender Bathrooms?
(06-05-2016 11:11 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(06-05-2016 02:24 AM)djhall Wrote:  No one I've spoken to that objects to gender neutral bathroom laws seems to care much about the bathroom choices of actual transgendered people.

A lot of Americans have real hang ups about nudity and it is illegal to be naked in public practically everywhere, including at the beach. About the only place it is legal to be naked in public is inside a bathroom or locker room.

You've clearly never been to Ashland, OR where they tried to pass a local ordinance prohibiting nudity within 50 feet of an elementary school. It lost overwhelmingly. Another family there with small children complained that their old man neighbor sunbathed nude on his lawn in full wrinkled view of their children. Not a damn thing they could do about it. Plenty of nude beaches around the country as well. Public nudity is tolerated in far more places than you think.

It's legal in all of Oregon as far as I know. I walk around nude in my garden all the time. (That's a lie)
It's legal though.

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