Transgender Roles
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26-10-2013, 05:11 PM
RE: Transgender Roles
(26-10-2013 09:51 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That is the bit I was referring to. I didn't make this clear but I actually meant there are physical differences in the brain chemistry and make-up between men and women. Women tend to have better olfactory senses and are much better at color distinguishing than men. Men on the other hand are better at spacial calculations and are better at physical tasks on average of course there are outliers on either side but the salient point remains.

There are different hormones, but I think most gender essentialists tend to blow it out of proportion. That accounts for differences in fat distribution and muscle mass, though.

For example, you talk about distinguishing colors. What does that have to do with gender expression?

I took the topic to be about the way people conform to social stereotypes of male and female, how they act, not if they have boobs or if they are red/green colorblind. I have read books that said the spatial reasoning stuff was bunk, though, but too lazy to look up links.

I consider myself agender/nongendered, so I might just not understand gender identity at all. though.
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26-10-2013, 05:16 PM
RE: Transgender Roles
Certain physical traits can be tell-tale signs of sexual confusion (in this sense I mean that the person in question isn't clearly male or female). This isn't always so, but it is an an indicator that should not be overlooked to spare feelings.

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26-10-2013, 09:09 PM
RE: Transgender Roles
(26-10-2013 05:11 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(26-10-2013 09:51 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  That is the bit I was referring to. I didn't make this clear but I actually meant there are physical differences in the brain chemistry and make-up between men and women. Women tend to have better olfactory senses and are much better at color distinguishing than men. Men on the other hand are better at spacial calculations and are better at physical tasks on average of course there are outliers on either side but the salient point remains.
For example, you talk about distinguishing colors. What does that have to do with gender expression?

Yea - I'm a female and I also happen to have a tremendously high mechanical aptitude... have since I was a little kid.
I also happen to have a degree in painting ... which by the way, has been a predominantly male area of expertise for... forever.

I don't think being better at something has anything to do with an individual who feels a particular gender identity.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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26-10-2013, 10:29 PM
RE: Transgender Roles
(26-10-2013 05:11 PM)amyb Wrote:  There are different hormones, but I think most gender essentialists tend to blow it out of proportion. That accounts for differences in fat distribution and muscle mass, though.

Those same hormones that influence muscle mass and fat distribution also influence brain development. Look at the citations I provided in my earlier post.
The brain is covered in the same sex hormone receptors that adipose tissue and skeletal muscle are covered with.

Quote:For example, you talk about distinguishing colors. What does that have to do with gender expression?

We didn't evolve as a species in anything that resembles suburbia. We acquired the traits that we have about 200,000 years ago. We are a domesticated species and were domesticated only about 3000 years ago.

When anatomically modern humans evolved they were hunter-gatherers. The cognitive and percptual differences between male and female humans correspond to the primary division of labour of males as hunters and females as gatherers. That division of labour, that fundamental gendering has a biological basis. Men are better hunters than women because of their particlular perceptual and cognitive capacities and women are superior gatherers because of their superior pereceptual and cognitive skills. Colour differentiation and olfaction are required for successful gathering.

Quote:I took the topic to be about the way people conform to social stereotypes of male and female, how they act, not if they have boobs or if they are red/green colorblind.

It looks like you've been brain damaged by reading too much gender/queer studies tripe. Your ancestors were hunter-gatherers and a colourblind female makes for a poor gatherer of ripe fruit.

Quote:I have read books that said the spatial reasoning stuff was bunk, though, but too lazy to look up links.

I have read books that said that God made women from Adam's rib. That must be true also because it is in books.

Really?

Quote:I consider myself agender/nongendered, so I might just not understand gender identity at all. though.

Because gender roles have a biological substrate doesn't mean that all individuals will be gendered, variation along a continuum is exactly what is to be expected.
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26-10-2013, 10:56 PM (This post was last modified: 26-10-2013 11:13 PM by Chippy.)
RE: Transgender Roles
(26-10-2013 09:09 PM)kim Wrote:  Yea - I'm a female and I also happen to have a tremendously high mechanical aptitude... have since I was a little kid.
I also happen to have a degree in painting ... which by the way, has been a predominantly male area of expertise for... forever.

That doesn't amount to a refutation of what Revenant posted. Human sexual reproduction is high-fidelity replication not perfect fidelity replication. There a chromosomal, genetic, epigenetic and gestational sources of variation that will eventually produce all possible combinations and permutations of traits.

Quote:I don't think being better at something has anything to do with an individual who feels a particular gender identity.

It depends on the specific skill in question. There is a good body of evidence that males and females do differ significantly (at the population level) in certain perceptual and cognitive capacities; that these differences have their origin in divergent neurologies; and that these differences coincide with the skills required for effective hunting versus effective gathering.

In human sexual reproduction there is no guarantee that genotype will coicide perfectly with phenotype. It is to be expected that there will be some chromosomal females that will have slightly masculinised brains as well as chromosomal males with slightly feminised brains.

Also not all traits are adaptations, some are exaptations and some are spandrels so their evolutionary origin may be unclear.
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26-10-2013, 11:12 PM
RE: Transgender Roles
(26-10-2013 10:29 PM)Chippy Wrote:  It looks like you've been brain damaged by reading too much gender/queer studies tripe.

This added nothing to your post and really detracted from the quality of it. Everything else you said was very well thought out and insightful. If you back off the attacks a little I think you could become one of our better members Chippy but as long as you insult everyone that disagrees with you I think it holds you back. Other than that though 2 really great posts.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-10-2013, 05:16 AM
RE: Transgender Roles
Quote:It looks like you've been brain damaged by reading too much gender/queer studies tripe. Your ancestors were hunter-gatherers and a colourblind female makes for a poor gatherer of ripe fruit.
And yet you're still talking about shit like color differentiation, rather than gender expression. You're talking about biological differences, and I'm talking about the ideas of maleness and femaleness.

If gender expression was innate, then why do parents discourage boys from liking pink stuff and discourage girls from playing with trucks and getting dirty? Because those areas are determined by society. I still haven't seen anyone in the thread say "men and women are exactly alike in every way and women even have penises." No, because that's absurd.
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27-10-2013, 07:16 AM
RE: Transgender Roles
(27-10-2013 05:16 AM)amyb Wrote:  And yet you're still talking about shit like color differentiation, rather than gender expression. You're talking about biological differences, and I'm talking about the ideas of maleness and femaleness.

Maleness and femaleness derive mainly from biological differences. No one consciously decides that they are going to exhibit sex-typical behaviour any more than they decide to be heterosexual or homosexual. Certain things just "feel right" and they do so because they have a phylogenetic origin.

Primary MtF transexuals are actively socialised as boys by their parents and apparently out of nowehere these children gravitate towards female-typical preferences. They do so because they "feel" like girls, no one is telling them to behave that way--they are actually being told to behave in the opposite way by their significant figures--and they haven't read gender studies books and have decided to subvert the idea of gender.

Quote:If gender expression was innate, then why do parents discourage boys from liking pink stuff and discourage girls from playing with trucks and getting dirty? Because those areas are determined by society.

As I wrote in my initial post, gender roles have a cultural overlay and a biological basis. What you have described is cultural overlay. But underneath that there are well-documented differences in play behaviour between males and females and again these coincide with the gender roles in hunter-gatherer societies.[1][2][3][4][5][6]

Quote:I still haven't seen anyone in the thread say "men and women are exactly alike in every way and women even have penises." No, because that's absurd.

But you are trying to sell us the pre-scientific idea that female and male brains are identical and you are trying to do so in the absence of any evidence.
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02-11-2013, 04:25 PM
RE: Transgender Roles
(25-10-2013 08:06 PM)BrokenQuill92 Wrote:  Do transgender people reinforce gender roles and stereotype? Feeling uncomfortable in your own is fine, but are they reinforcing societal ideas of femininity  and masculinity? Example, a quote you hear from trans peeps is "I've always felt like a  X". 

With transgendered people, it is not about the societal roles, it's about dysphoria. Frequently, transgendered men will cry the first time they get their periods because they feel very strongly that they are not women, that they were not meant to be biologically women. Whereas transgendered women will mourned not getting their periods. Sexuality and gender identity are separate issues. For example, I have a friend who is a transgendered woman (born male) who is also a lesbian. She always wanted long hair growing up, wanted to wear her mom's makeup and clothing. From age 5,she felt like a million bucks every time someone passing her and her mom on the street would say, " oh, what a beautiful little girl!" and she would be crushed when her mother would reply, "this is my son." (her mom was not supportive and, aside from the long hair, which she allowed her to keep, she would not allow her to act "outside of her gender." (his, if you asked her mom.) She is now 35 years old, and has been on hormone replacement therapy for 13 years. Her family still refers to her with male pronouns and with her birth name of "sean". My friend is tough. She works on her own truck, loves sports, drinks beer, and smokes marb reds. She does not conform to societal expectations of women, but she is a woman. She feels the need to express her gender identity as a woman. While living as a man, she felt so wrong about everything that she was suicidal. Now she is a happy, productive member of society (and a killer auntie to my daughter, I might add.) I'm not sure if this answers your question or not, but those are my thoughts on the topic.
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02-11-2013, 04:33 PM
RE: Transgender Roles
(27-10-2013 07:16 AM)Chippy Wrote:  But you are trying to sell us the pre-scientific idea that female and male brains are identical and you are trying to do so in the absence of any evidence.
No, I have never stated they were identical. I said there were chemical differences due to hormones that can cause differences in behavior, muscle mass, fat distribution, etc. You are the one who keeps trying to say I'm saying they are identical. I have been saying that a lot what makes up gender roles (which is what I thought this topic was about) is socially-constructed. That's not the same thing as saying there is literally no difference between men and women; that is only saying that some things are culturally defined.

Are you saying there is a biological basis for little girls wearing pink and little boys wearing blue? That a boy would never,ever pick up a doll if parents weren't constantly telling him that's a "girl toy" and calling him a sissy for playing with it? I'm saying that certain things like that are culturally-defined.
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