Transgenderism, gender, and identy
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12-06-2016, 09:39 PM
Transgenderism, gender, and identy
So I got into a fight with my dad the other day, which isn't too uncommon. But this time it was over trans people. He claimed that trangenderism is a delusion. That it is no different than people believing they are dogs or whatever. I said that no, some people have brains that are simply wired in a different way. I said it shouldn't matter anyway since it wasn't hurting anyone. Then he pulls out the claim that it DOES hurt those people. That trans people regret it when they undergo reassignment. He said there were studies to back him up on it.

I looked it up and TECHNICALLY there is a study that shows an increased risk of arrest and suicide among transitioned trans people. As compared to cisgendered people. I tend to think that this does not support my dad's conclusion. My dad is a lawyer, and a sort-of theist. He suffers from a VERY strong confirmation bias. He is also smarter than I am.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Has anyone else read anything about the long term effects and if they support his conclusions? Because I can find nothing else to even remotely support it.
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12-06-2016, 10:42 PM (This post was last modified: 12-06-2016 10:46 PM by dancefortwo.)
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
(12-06-2016 09:39 PM)natachan Wrote:  So I got into a fight with my dad the other day, which isn't too uncommon. But this time it was over trans people. He claimed that trangenderism is a delusion. That it is no different than people believing they are dogs or whatever. I said that no, some people have brains that are simply wired in a different way. I said it shouldn't matter anyway since it wasn't hurting anyone. Then he pulls out the claim that it DOES hurt those people. That trans people regret it when they undergo reassignment. He said there were studies to back him up on it.

I looked it up and TECHNICALLY there is a study that shows an increased risk of arrest and suicide among transitioned trans people. As compared to cisgendered people. I tend to think that this does not support my dad's conclusion. My dad is a lawyer, and a sort-of theist. He suffers from a VERY strong confirmation bias. He is also smarter than I am.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

Has anyone else read anything about the long term effects and if they support his conclusions? Because I can find nothing else to even remotely support it.

My daughter is transgender. Here's a couple of links that might help you regarding the brain of transgender people.

http://www.ozy.com/pov/check-the-science...oice/69726

And here are a bunch of studies...brain scans and the like, that look at the brains of transgender people. There seems to be a part of the brain that resembles that of the opposite sex and this is formed during pregnancy.

http://aebrain.blogspot.com.au/p/transse...ntity.html

There is also some evidence, though it's mostly anecdotal, that transgender people have a higher IQ than the norm. My daughter's IQ is very high (she sure didn't inherit it from me. Rolleyes ) but it could be because she and other transgender people have to spend a lot of time ruminating about their predicament and that stimulates the brain to.....well.... do a lot of thinking!

Edit: I meant to add this link.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tann...60626.html

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-06-2016, 05:15 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
I suspect that suicide rates go up in transgender people not because they are no longer happy with who they are but because of the way society treats transgender people and the kinds of pressure and hate directed to that part of the community.

And if that is the case the solution is not to stop people being transgender it is to say that discrimination and hate towards that part of the community is not ok.

Find studies that compare today (as in, the last year or two) with 20 years ago and I'm positive you will find that suicide rates have decreased as society becomes more open to the concept of transgender people.

Bonus points: Point out your dads own discrimination towards transgender people as part of the root cause of those suicides and if he truly cared about them as much as much as he likes to think he does, he will cease in being a fucking wanker towards them and be more accepting.


Also, if he thinks it's a delusion, ask him when he decided he was a boy. Because that is how transgender people feel but towards the opposite gender. That doesn't make them delusional. That makes them about as delusional as two people, one who likes pumpkin and one who doesn't. It's just the way shit is.

Oh and tell him I said he's a cunt.
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13-06-2016, 05:51 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
then again -- the humorous side of it all ---




.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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13-06-2016, 06:07 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
(13-06-2016 05:15 AM)earmuffs Wrote:  I suspect that suicide rates go up in transgender people not because they are no longer happy with who they are but because of the way society treats transgender people and the kinds of pressure and hate directed to that part of the community.

And if that is the case the solution is not to stop people being transgender it is to say that discrimination and hate towards that part of the community is not ok.

Find studies that compare today (as in, the last year or two) with 20 years ago and I'm positive you will find that suicide rates have decreased as society becomes more open to the concept of transgender people.

Bonus points: Point out your dads own discrimination towards transgender people as part of the root cause of those suicides and if he truly cared about them as much as much as he likes to think he does, he will cease in being a fucking wanker towards them and be more accepting.


Also, if he thinks it's a delusion, ask him when he decided he was a boy. Because that is how transgender people feel but towards the opposite gender. That doesn't make them delusional. That makes them about as delusional as two people, one who likes pumpkin and one who doesn't. It's just the way shit is.

Oh and tell him I said he's a cunt.


This.

Transitioning is really tough. And the figures regarding suicides don't differentiate between people who do it successfully and those that don't. There is an awful lot of equivocation from people who adopt the position of the OP's father. But ask yourself this. If transitioning wasn't in the interest of the transgendered person then they have plenty of time to stop and revert back. It's not a single operation where you go in one gender and come out another. The standards dictate that you need to live at least a year in your chosen gender full time before this happens. In practice transitioning takes many years and a lot of money.

If trans people regretted it then the medical establishment wouldn't provide treatment. The treatment is there because it has been the only thing that has so far worked and has always been the last option given to the patient.

The OP's father is talking shite.
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13-06-2016, 07:47 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
See, that's the takeaway I got from reading this study, that this could more reflect the treatment of trans people. He wants to present this data as if it is in a vacuum. Now if the data was for those who have transitioned and those who haven't I would give his position more credence. But it's not.

Now unless I have the numbers in front of me I can't argue with him, because he is smarter than I am. His IQ is about five points higher than mine, and he is a seasoned lawyer. He also is rather stuck in his opinion, which bothers me since both my younger brother and me differ from gender norms of behaviour. That's not the same as transgenderism, but really he should know better. He has an incredibly strong confirmation bias, which is why I, an engineer, tend not to argue with him, a lawyer, about things. Especially science.

And yes, I told him he's an arrogant asshole. He says he knows.
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13-06-2016, 07:53 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
I would like to, seriously, read a definition of transgender. Is it one of these terms that mean a different thing to different people? Is it as one of the above posts seems to imply just a person who has gone thru a series of operations or include any one who 'self identifies' as different than what they would seemingly be by looking at their body?
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13-06-2016, 08:15 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
The latter for sure.
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13-06-2016, 09:03 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
(13-06-2016 07:53 AM)Born Again Pagan Wrote:  I would like to, seriously, read a definition of transgender. Is it one of these terms that mean a different thing to different people? Is it as one of the above posts seems to imply just a person who has gone thru a series of operations or include any one who 'self identifies' as different than what they would seemingly be by looking at their body?

Like so many other things there is a spectrum. Some people don't have a problem until they hit puberty for others it's present from birth. In retrospect my transgender daughter was a girl from day one. My husband and I tried to "man him up" so to speak by introducing sports and more masculine activities as a child. It just didn't take.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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13-06-2016, 09:13 AM
RE: Transgenderism, gender, and identy
This is from a 2012 study on Transgender Mental Health Study among 900 participants.

In terms of physical changes made during transition (resulting from hormone therapy and surgical interventions), the vast majority, 86%, had no regrets. Of the remainder, 10% had minor regrets and 2% had major regrets.

The specific regrets given include complications relating to surgery (especially loss of sensitivity), and the choice of surgeon (if surgery resulted in complications or required revisions and repairs). The following impacts on wellbeing were reported by the researchers:

Transition was related to improved life satisfaction and body satisfaction.
Transition was related to a decrease in mental health service use, reduced depression, and better reported mental health.
For those with a history of self-harm, suicidal ideation and suicide attempts, all showed a reduction post-transition.
Very few participants regretted the physical changes that they had undergone as part of transition.
Most participants experienced improvements in the quality of their sex lives following transition.


Most regret is related to the quality of the surgery. The best surgeons for male to female are in South East Asia but it's expensive to fly there and undergo the operation for most transgender people.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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