Trinity Blues.
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29-07-2014, 03:49 PM
Trinity Blues.
The Christian dogma of a three in one, one in three God became Christian doctrine in 400C.E. Prior to this things were more open ended with a reincarnationist outlook held by many. It may well have been a desire to rid the church of any beliefs in reincarnation that helped the push towards a trinity. It was held by some that Jesus, as saviour, did not sit well with the soul living a huge number of lives in order to develop spiritually. Reincarnation, some years later was classed as anathema.

Allegedly, Jesus provided mixed messages regarding his own godliness, sometimes seeming to suggest He was God, sometimes suggesting he was less than his Father.
Dying on the Cross Jesus is alleged to have cried "Father why have you foresaken me";clearly He was not talking to himself. More bizarre is the notion that God the Father sacrificed Himself incognito, only to restore Himself several hours later. Hardly the act of an omniscient,omnipotent, and omnipresent Being! Even highly acclaimed Church leader Augustine couldn't get his head around the Trinity.

Today most Christian churches teach the trinity. There are exceptions, which include Unitarianism and the Jehovahs Witnesses, the latter teaching that Jesus was the archangel Gabriel ...or was it Michael, and the former pretty much atheistic in their beliefs.

The idea of Jesus as the ultimate God of the Universe, perfectly good and fair, all knowing, all powerful etc makes for a very strong dogma indeed. Perhaps Jesus as a harbinger of new and highly controversial ideas, relevant to the mind set of some 2000 years past, is a kinder way of viewing the scenario, than to hold firm to the dogmas held by the thousands of churches, cults and sects, claiming to preach the word of God.
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30-07-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: Trinity Blues.
(29-07-2014 03:49 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Allegedly, Jesus provided mixed messages regarding his own godliness, sometimes seeming to suggest He was God, sometimes suggesting he was less than his Father.
Dying on the Cross Jesus is alleged to have cried "Father why have you foresaken me";clearly He was not talking to himself. More bizarre is the notion that God the Father sacrificed Himself incognito, only to restore Himself several hours later. Hardly the act of an omniscient,omnipotent, and omnipresent Being! Even highly acclaimed Church leader Augustine couldn't get his head around the Trinity.

My understanding is this is the primary reason for the Trinity. The Bible says contradictory things, even among the books kept in the "official" canon. To reconcile these contradictions, a logically incoherent stance (the Trinity) was created, and everyone just sort of... buys it.

The Trinity is the perfect embodiment of the principle of explosion. If you talk to an adherent about God, they will talk about him as singular and plural whenever it suits them. When you have something simultaneously claiming A and !A, you can say whatever you want!
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30-07-2014, 04:08 PM
RE: Trinity Blues.
(30-07-2014 10:01 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 03:49 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Allegedly, Jesus provided mixed messages regarding his own godliness, sometimes seeming to suggest He was God, sometimes suggesting he was less than his Father.
Dying on the Cross Jesus is alleged to have cried "Father why have you foresaken me";clearly He was not talking to himself. More bizarre is the notion that God the Father sacrificed Himself incognito, only to restore Himself several hours later. Hardly the act of an omniscient,omnipotent, and omnipresent Being! Even highly acclaimed Church leader Augustine couldn't get his head around the Trinity.

My understanding is this is the primary reason for the Trinity. The Bible says contradictory things, even among the books kept in the "official" canon. To reconcile these contradictions, a logically incoherent stance (the Trinity) was created, and everyone just sort of... buys it.

The Trinity is the perfect embodiment of the principle of explosion. If you talk to an adherent about God, they will talk about him as singular and plural whenever it suits them. When you have something simultaneously claiming A and !A, you can say whatever you want!

Thank you, an interesting perspective.
It's a long time since I looked at symbolic logic.

If I might elaborate on O.P. I see the trinity idea locking 'God' into a very limited Christian perspective, (Jesus, Yahweh, H/S, one in all, absolutely good, all powerful, all knowing etc ruling the entire cosmos so to speak.
In many instances I see atheism obsessed with the Christian god, along with all the strange beliefs, and ignoring the notion of a possible cosmic force for betterment at a metaphysical level. To my mind an ever evolving force of goodness, (devolving too)is a more practical stance.......if 'practical' is appropriate in considering metaphysical issues.
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30-07-2014, 08:46 PM
RE: Trinity Blues.
(29-07-2014 03:49 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Christian dogma of a three in one, one in three God became Christian doctrine in 400C.E. Prior to this things were more open ended with a reincarnationist outlook held by many. It may well have been a desire to rid the church of any beliefs in reincarnation that helped the push towards a trinity. It was held by some that Jesus, as saviour, did not sit well with the soul living a huge number of lives in order to develop spiritually. Reincarnation, some years later was classed as anathema.

Allegedly, Jesus provided mixed messages regarding his own godliness, sometimes seeming to suggest He was God, sometimes suggesting he was less than his Father.
Dying on the Cross Jesus is alleged to have cried "Father why have you foresaken me";clearly He was not talking to himself. More bizarre is the notion that God the Father sacrificed Himself incognito, only to restore Himself several hours later. Hardly the act of an omniscient,omnipotent, and omnipresent Being! Even highly acclaimed Church leader Augustine couldn't get his head around the Trinity.

Today most Christian churches teach the trinity. There are exceptions, which include Unitarianism and the Jehovahs Witnesses, the latter teaching that Jesus was the archangel Gabriel ...or was it Michael, and the former pretty much atheistic in their beliefs.

The idea of Jesus as the ultimate God of the Universe, perfectly good and fair, all knowing, all powerful etc makes for a very strong dogma indeed. Perhaps Jesus as a harbinger of new and highly controversial ideas, relevant to the mind set of some 2000 years past, is a kinder way of viewing the scenario, than to hold firm to the dogmas held by the thousands of churches, cults and sects, claiming to preach the word of God.

I just wanted to mention that the "why hath thou forsaken me bit" is a reference to Isaiah, he being the one who prophesized the messiah. Matthew used his gospel to demonstrate that Jesus was the Messiah and that he was coming to write a new law.

Also if you read the opening of John, there is a very heavy emphasis on Jesus being God, although not the trinity it hints a lot at at least a duality.

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30-07-2014, 08:57 PM
RE: Trinity Blues.
(30-07-2014 08:46 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 03:49 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  The Christian dogma of a three in one, one in three God became Christian doctrine in 400C.E. Prior to this things were more open ended with a reincarnationist outlook held by many. It may well have been a desire to rid the church of any beliefs in reincarnation that helped the push towards a trinity. It was held by some that Jesus, as saviour, did not sit well with the soul living a huge number of lives in order to develop spiritually. Reincarnation, some years later was classed as anathema.

Allegedly, Jesus provided mixed messages regarding his own godliness, sometimes seeming to suggest He was God, sometimes suggesting he was less than his Father.
Dying on the Cross Jesus is alleged to have cried "Father why have you foresaken me";clearly He was not talking to himself. More bizarre is the notion that God the Father sacrificed Himself incognito, only to restore Himself several hours later. Hardly the act of an omniscient,omnipotent, and omnipresent Being! Even highly acclaimed Church leader Augustine couldn't get his head around the Trinity.

Today most Christian churches teach the trinity. There are exceptions, which include Unitarianism and the Jehovahs Witnesses, the latter teaching that Jesus was the archangel Gabriel ...or was it Michael, and the former pretty much atheistic in their beliefs.

The idea of Jesus as the ultimate God of the Universe, perfectly good and fair, all knowing, all powerful etc makes for a very strong dogma indeed. Perhaps Jesus as a harbinger of new and highly controversial ideas, relevant to the mind set of some 2000 years past, is a kinder way of viewing the scenario, than to hold firm to the dogmas held by the thousands of churches, cults and sects, claiming to preach the word of God.

I just wanted to mention that the "why hath thou forsaken me bit" is a reference to Isaiah, he being the one who prophesized the messiah. Matthew used his gospel to demonstrate that Jesus was the Messiah and that he was coming to write a new law.

Also if you read the opening of John, there is a very heavy emphasis on Jesus being God, although not the trinity it hints a lot at at least a duality.

Isaiah did not "prophesy" the messiah (Jesus). He (they actually .. there were at least three people writing under that name) talked about HIS expectation for the restoration of the Kingdom of Israel. Divination and omen reading was forbidden .
Prophesy was not the telling of the future.
Aquinas said if anyone says they understand the trinity, they are lying.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-07-2014, 10:59 AM
RE: Trinity Blues.
Id, ego, superego = my own personal Jesus for the win. Thumbsup

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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31-07-2014, 11:19 AM
RE: Trinity Blues.
(29-07-2014 03:49 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Today most Christian churches teach the trinity. There are exceptions, which include Unitarianism and the Jehovahs Witnesses, the latter teaching that Jesus was the archangel Gabriel ...or was it Michael, and the former pretty much atheistic in their beliefs.

1. You need to distinguish between Unitarianism, which is a developed belief that started from a denial of the Trinity and followed through to a much broader conclusion, and Biblical Unitarianism, which holds that the Bible is true and Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. The latter group has fewer adherents, but the terminology is such that the distinction needs to be made.

2. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ was Michael before his incarnation.

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31-07-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: Trinity Blues.
(31-07-2014 11:19 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  
(29-07-2014 03:49 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Today most Christian churches teach the trinity. There are exceptions, which include Unitarianism and the Jehovahs Witnesses, the latter teaching that Jesus was the archangel Gabriel ...or was it Michael, and the former pretty much atheistic in their beliefs.

1. You need to distinguish between Unitarianism, which is a developed belief that started from a denial of the Trinity and followed through to a much broader conclusion, and Biblical Unitarianism, which holds that the Bible is true and Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. The latter group has fewer adherents, but the terminology is such that the distinction needs to be made.

2. Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ was Michael before his incarnation.
My experience with the Unitarians here in Victoria is that the bulk are largely atheistic in their outlook; I believe this differs in other states.
Yes, it was Michael who the Witnesses opted for, and this sets them apart from much of Christendom.
One of the leading apologists for Unitarianism, (the name temporarily alludes me) was burned at the stake as an opponent of the radical views of Calvin.
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