"True Atheists are Hypocrites"
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18-11-2010, 08:32 AM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Ghost

Yes, I get your point, I just think it is absolutely wrong. You can't just make things up and say "Science can't provide evidence that it doesn't exist, so there!". Well, you can do that but you can't do it and expect to be taken seriously.

Without evidence, any evidence, that something exists, then it doesn't. Remember, the only reason we are having this discussion is because of claims of the supernatural manifesting itself into the natural world. The bible claims that all of universe was a supernatural event, so we are all physical evidence of the supernatural. To now claim that the supernatural, which is credited with everything, is now outside science is just laughable. It's a made up position, pure and simple.

So, yes, I understand your point. I have from the beginning. I flat out reject it.

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18-11-2010, 09:03 AM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Hey, Bnw.

That's fair. Reject it. But you also have to admit that you are rejecting it based on opinion, not fact.

You make the assumption that claims of the supernatural are frivolous.

Quote:Without evidence, any evidence, that something exists, then it doesn't.

An assumption.

Quote:"Science can't provide evidence that it doesn't exist, so there!".

Does science have limits? It's a serious question. If you want sceince to be taken seriously then we need to address the question in an unbiased manner.

Quote:...is just laughable.

Thankfully derision is not a convincing argument.

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Matt
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18-11-2010, 01:49 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Quote:That's fair. Reject it. But you also have to admit that you are rejecting it based on opinion, not fact.

You make the assumption that claims of the supernatural are frivolous.

Fair enough, but you act as if the opinion is not based on anything rational. The complete and total lack of evidence makes the assumption that it does not exist a reasonable assumption. And, again, several people have made it perfectly clear that we don't believe in absolute truth on most things, nor is that required.

Quote:Does science have limits? It's a serious question. If you want sceince to be taken seriously then we need to address the question in an unbiased manner.

No, science does not have limits. Our capacity to learn, and maybe even comprehend, in a given lifetime has limits but science is just a search for truth and the search has no limits, save maybe our creativity and ability to ponder.

Quote:Thankfully derision is not a convincing argument.

Sure it is. You're just not using it correctly.

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18-11-2010, 02:28 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
(18-11-2010 08:32 AM)BnW Wrote:  Remember, the only reason we are having this discussion is because of claims of the supernatural manifesting itself into the natural world. The bible claims that all of universe was a supernatural event, so we are all physical evidence of the supernatural.
Can I just correct this, as an aside to this conversation.

The bible claims that all of the universe was the result of a supernatural event. So we are all physical evidence of the result of a supernatural event.
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18-11-2010, 04:37 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
(18-11-2010 02:28 PM)fr0d0 Wrote:  
(18-11-2010 08:32 AM)BnW Wrote:  Remember, the only reason we are having this discussion is because of claims of the supernatural manifesting itself into the natural world. The bible claims that all of universe was a supernatural event, so we are all physical evidence of the supernatural.
Can I just correct this, as an aside to this conversation.

The bible claims that all of the universe was the result of a supernatural event. So we are all physical evidence of the result of a supernatural event.

That's what I meant. Sorry it wasn't clear.

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18-11-2010, 05:10 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Ghost I reject the claim that the supernatural is beyond science based on the fact that not a single testable element (because there are many supernatural claims that can be tested) of the supernatural has shown itself to be anything but a scam.

But even larger then that is a very specific reason I do not accept this claim for the Abrahamic god for a very specific reason. No where in the Bible does god every make the claim that he is beyond our natural realm. In fact in the 3rd set of the 10 commandments god gives he states that "Thrice in the year shall all of your men children appear before the Lord God." Exodus 34:23

We have no good reason to believe that Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, or whatever you wish to call him is beyond the natural.

Do you have a good reason bible based or otherwise to think he is beyond the natural realm?
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18-11-2010, 07:21 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Hey, BnW.

Quote:The complete and total lack of evidence makes the assumption that it does not exist a reasonable assumption.

Provided that science is capable of detecting such evidence. If it can't then it aint.

Quote:No, science does not have limits.

Bold statement. What do you base it on? Has it been peer reviewed? Is there a journal I can read? Where's the proof?

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Matt
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18-11-2010, 07:45 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Quote: Bold statement. What do you base it on? Has it been peer reviewed? Is there a journal I can read? Where's the proof?

I said exactly what I based it on. You chose to cut one part out of an entire thought and take it out of context. Feel free to respond to what I actually did say as opposed to cherry picking and I'm happy to respond. But, this wasn't a question, it was a tantrum.

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19-11-2010, 01:58 AM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Let me ask a basic question here before people get too far.

Is there anything other then the supernatural that Science can't explore?

As I've asserted before we are making an assumption that the Supernatural even exists. You can invent anything and throw it in the Supernatural realm so it can't be debunked.

So if God is the only thing allowed in the Supernatural area (I have shown above why Yahweh is NOT in this realm) then your argument is reduced to thus.

Science can't explore god because god is the only thing science can't explore.

This is why every other supernatural ability has been debunked under reasonable lab conditions, dousing, telepathy, physic powers, astronomy, etc. have all been debunked.
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19-11-2010, 10:09 AM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Hey, BnW.

Quote:No, science does not have limits. Our capacity to learn, and maybe even comprehend, in a given lifetime has limits but science is just a search for truth and the search has no limits, save maybe our creativity and ability to ponder.

Bold statement. What do you base it on? Has it been peer reviewed? Is there a journal I can read? Where's the proof?

Tantrum? You are so remarkably consistent in making incorrect assumptions about me.

Math can add any two numbers together without limit. That's a statement that can be verified. If you make a statement like "science has no limits" then it should be equally verifiable. Otherwise it's an opinion.

If you watch the superstring documentary, "The Elegant Universe," one physicist asks an important question. Superstring theory is unprovable. Full stop. The math makes sense but it's not a proof. Brian Greene himself say's that. So this other physicist asks, does that mean it's science, or philosophy?

He is, like many scientists, willing to recognise the limits of science. He won't commit to saying that superstring theory is a scientific reality because science can't prove it.

And that has to do with something that is naturally occuring.

If the supernatural can't be investigated at all... This is so frustrating because the objection is based on a sumary rejection of the idea that the supernatural is beyond the reach of science. No one is even willing to entertain the idea that IF it's true, then the idea makes sense.

So you'll excuse me if I ask you to back up a statement like "science does not have limits" and I'll thank you to not tell me I'm having a tantrum for asking.

Hey, Godless.

Quote:Is there anything other then the supernatural that Science can't explore?

Philosophy.

Quote:As I've asserted before we are making an assumption that the Supernatural even exists.

No. No one is. Quote one sentence in this entire thread that supports that.

It's simple. Science cannot comment on the supernatural REGARDLESS of whether or not it exists. That is to say, science cannot tell us one way or the other.

How in God's name you figure that means the supernatural exists is beyond me.

Quote:You can invent anything and throw it in the Supernatural realm so it can't be debunked.

So instead we should just claim that science can do something it can't? Fantastic.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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