"True Atheists are Hypocrites"
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19-11-2010, 10:49 AM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Quote:Bold statement. What do you base it on? Has it been peer reviewed? Is there a journal I can read? Where's the proof?

Science is a quest for truth. What are possible limits to that? Again, the limitations are on our ability to understand and to comprehend, but not to search for the truth. Even the examples you quote deal with not the quest but our capacity to process information and imagine a way to provide the details.

I think this is really a semantic argument, to be honest.

Quote:Tantrum? You are so remarkably consistent in making incorrect assumptions about me.

So you say, but I don't think so. Not really relevant, though.

Quote:If the supernatural can't be investigated at all... This is so frustrating because the objection is based on a sumary rejection of the idea that the supernatural is beyond the reach of science. No one is even willing to entertain the idea that IF it's true, then the idea makes sense.

The idea has been entertained. It's been whined, dined, taken to a movie, and then rejected. What you've done is created a definition for yourself that really makes no sense. Of course if the supernatural can't be investigated at all then the scientific method would fail to prove or disprove it. That's obvious. What we all reject is your definition given that all claims of the supernatural are based on physical manifestations on the natural world.

Quote:So you'll excuse me if I ask you to back up a statement like "science does not have limits" and I'll thank you to not tell me I'm having a tantrum for asking.

You're excused and you're welcome.

Quote:It's simple. Science cannot comment on the supernatural REGARDLESS of whether or not it exists. That is to say, science cannot tell us one way or the other.

I know this was not directed at me, but - the problem here, again, is definitional. You're creating a definition of the supernatural that is not consistent with what the supernatural purports to be.

I said once before that you equate philosophy with physics in terms of it explaining the Universe. You said you didn't understand the comment so I'm going to try it again here: you seem to believe that posing a philosophical question and debating it solely on a philosophical basis can get you to the same place as asking what I'll call a physical question and trying to answer it scientifically. To you, these are equal ways to approach a topic. So, for you, the old question about the tree falling in the woods would not be satisfactorily answered by just a discussion on impacts, sound waves, etc. For me, it would.

I'm sure you're going to take this as some kind of insult, but I'm only saying you are just approaching things vastly different from the way I think the rest of us are. That doesn't automatically mean you perspective is wrong (I obviously think it is but that's just one opinion), but it is very contrary to how many of the rest of us seem to think of these things.

Take that as you will.

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19-11-2010, 11:50 AM
 
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
(19-11-2010 10:09 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Bold statement. What do you base it on? Has it been peer reviewed? Is there a journal I can read? Where's the proof?

the proof is that peer review exists. Science is a self correcting process. Scientific claims are ALWAYS subject to intense scrutiny and assessment. if it wasnt..it wouldnt be science..the only way science would have limits is if people stop asking questions and seeking out answers. which, given the nature of the human mind...i dont think that's going to happen until every human being is dead..which renders the question irrelevant.



Quote:Math can add any two numbers together without limit. That's a statement that can be verified. If you make a statement like "science has no limits" then it should be equally verifiable. Otherwise it's an opinion.

If you watch the superstring documentary, "The Elegant Universe," one physicist asks an important question. Superstring theory is unprovable. Full stop. The math makes sense but it's not a proof. Brian Greene himself say's that. So this other physicist asks, does that mean it's science, or philosophy?

Ive seen the doc in question and you misquote him. Superstring theory is NOT unprovable. it's not currently provable but it most certainly is falsifiable.

Quote:He is, like many scientists, willing to recognise the limits of science. He won't commit to saying that superstring theory is a scientific reality because science can't prove it.

he wont commit, because it's premature...not because science CANT do it.


and that's really all i have to say about this headache of a thread.
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19-11-2010, 04:44 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Quote:and that's really all i have to say about this headache of a thread.

You ain't kidding. That's the reason I have barely opened the whole "Why I'm neither an atheist/theist" thread. I read the first post, thought it was completely flawed in its logic, closed it and move on.

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20-11-2010, 12:12 AM (This post was last modified: 20-11-2010 01:16 AM by Ghost.)
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Hey, Hauser.

Quote:and that's really all i have to say about this headache of a thread.

Sorry. Who are you exactly? Run along little boy, the men are talking.

Hey, Bnw.

Quote:You ain't kidding.

I'm so sorry that all of my flawed logic has wasted so much of your precious time. How about from now on, you just PM me what I should write and I'll copy and paste.

To both of you,

If what I write about is such a headache, SHUT UP. Don't read it and most of all, don't respond to it. I don't have time for childishness.

ON EDIT: Supernatural: of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

I have redefined NOTHING.
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20-11-2010, 07:52 AM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Quote:If what I write about is such a headache, SHUT UP. Don't read it and most of all, don't respond to it. I don't have time for childishness.

Well, given the number of times you have expressed frustration and kept on going, I think you do. Lots of time for it, actually.

Quote:ON EDIT: Supernatural: of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

I have redefined NOTHING.

That part that I feel that you have redefined is where you've gone on and said it is not detectable or measurable in the natural world, which is different then just being unexplainable. And, I think that is a significant difference for the reasons we've gone round and round on ad nauseum already.

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20-11-2010, 11:56 AM
 
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
(20-11-2010 12:12 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Sorry. Who are you exactly? Run along little boy, the men are talking.

firstly, Im female. secondly, it seems rather hypocritical to call others childish and then lash out in the same manner my four year old son would when he gets angry.

Quote:I'm so sorry that all of my flawed logic has wasted so much of your precious time. How about from now on, you just PM me what I should write and I'll copy and paste.

your problem here seems to be rigidness and a serious inability to adapt. also some really thin skin, which is not conducive to discussions on topics like this. i saw no one attack you. i most certainly didnt. people attacked your ideas. which is a good thing. it gives you a chance to evolve them.

Quote:If what I write about is such a headache, SHUT UP. Don't read it and most of all, don't respond to it. I don't have time for childishness.

i cant speak for anyone else but i happened to be referring to the thread as a whole. I didnt know being mature means calling people names and telling them to shut up.


Quote:I have redefined NOTHING.

you attempted to redefine science. which is something that bothers me a lot..especially considering that biology happens to be my chosen profession. Considering that, a response from someone like me should be expected.
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20-11-2010, 01:17 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Hey, BnW.

I make the assumption that the people I am speaking to are interested in a serious discussion. It's not unheard of for people with opposed views to get frustrated when communication becomes difficult. But they make their way through it because the goal is communication. When you say what you said, it tells me that you have no such interest. It tells me that you're playing around. That is something I don't have time for. I put a lot of energy into my posts. I have no interest in spending it for your amusement.

I said it's not measureable BY the natural world.

Hey, Hauser.

My apologies for the incorrect gender assignment. But it speaks to something. I have no idea who you are. I've been engaged in, what I had thought, was a serious conversation for weeks. You swoop in and start talking about it just being a giant headache? If you had contributed to the conversation first, that would be one thing. But you did not. You just poke your head into the room and say, essentially, I don't like that you guys are talking. Well, frankly, too bad.

Rigidness and a serious inability to adapt? I don't have time for that kind of nonsense.

If you have something to add to this conversation other than it's a headache and I'm rigid, feel free. If all you want to do is undermine it, then yes, I'd appreciate it if you just didn't bother.

I attempted to redefine science? Do explain.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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20-11-2010, 07:27 PM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Ghost

Quote:I make the assumption that the people I am speaking to are interested in a serious discussion. It's not unheard of for people with opposed views to get frustrated when communication becomes difficult. But they make their way through it because the goal is communication. When you say what you said, it tells me that you have no such interest. It tells me that you're playing around. That is something I don't have time for. I put a lot of energy into my posts. I have no interest in spending it for your amusement.

I'm not sure what you're looking for me to say to this. I stand by all my responses and I mean them as I write them. However, I don't take any of this overly seriously, and it seems to me that you do. That's why I've said on previous occasions that you need to lighten up some, which, ironically, seemed to have the complete opposite impact on you. And, I will confess, I found that amusing at times.

I'm not sure what you're looking for in these debates. I enjoy them for what they are, but I don't seriously believe I'm going to change your mind, or the mind of anyone else. The internet is what it is and people come here with their preconceived notions and hide behind the wall of anonymity and say whatever they want to, often things they won't say in the "real" world. That's kind of the whole point of the internet. But, the simple fact is that our respective views of the world are so diametrically opposed that the only reason to do this is for entertainment. I find the debate aspect of it entertaining in and of itself. But, sometimes the entirety of it can be exasperating; hence the "headache" comment from me. You'll notice, if you go back and check, that in all our disagreements I've never gone back to you with anything like you've come back at me with on several occasions. No specific insults, no curse words, etc. Yes, I've posted things that were dismissive and sarcastic and other more subtle bards, I will absolutely cop to that, but I've never gone down to the level that you've gone to above (and on other occasions). There is a reason for that, and I think the reason is I care far less then you do about all this. I think that's what it is at least. I'm sure you're going to come back and tell me I'm wrong and you actually care less then me.

Anyway, not trying to waste your time here and I do enjoy the back-and-forth, but you need to realize that this is somewhat of a game to me. And, if it's not to you, then I really question what your purpose is of being here.

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20-11-2010, 08:54 PM
 
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
(20-11-2010 01:17 PM)Ghost Wrote:  My apologies for the incorrect gender assignment. But it speaks to something. I have no idea who you are. I've been engaged in, what I had thought, was a serious conversation for weeks. You swoop in and start talking about it just being a giant headache? If you had contributed to the conversation first, that would be one thing. But you did not. You just poke your head into the room and say, essentially, I don't like that you guys are talking. Well, frankly, too bad.

but i didnt swoop in and just start talking about it being a headache. the headache comment was in reference to the fact that this whole thread goes all over the place in a very nonsensical way. that is not a personal insult, it is merely a personal observation.

but yes. i did not merely swoop in and talk about it being nothing but a headache. i came in to address something i see as incorrect. i did so. you dismissed and ignored it and started throwing around direct personal attacks.

Quote:Rigidness and a serious inability to adapt? I don't have time for that kind of nonsense.

proves my point exactly. it doesnt seem like you are here to explore...it seems like you are here with an agenda to convince others that the way you think is correct and you refuse to even entertain other points of view. while i may not have posted for a while due to the fact that i was unable to access this account for technical reasons, ive been a member here since June.

Quote:If you have something to add to this conversation other than it's a headache and I'm rigid, feel free. If all you want to do is undermine it, then yes, I'd appreciate it if you just didn't bother.

as i said, i did input on the conversation. you chose to ignore it and fly off the handle instead. the documentary you mentioned? i own it. when i saw your comment regarding it, i checked. you did misquote him....


Quote:I attempted to redefine science? Do explain.

...and yes you did. here...

Quote:Science cannot comment on the supernatural REGARDLESS of whether or not it exists. That is to say, science cannot tell us one way or the other.

this is patently false. as i said, science is a self correcting process. to add to that point, neither you nor i can say exactly where the line between the natural and the supernatural lies. there are instances of purportedly supernatural phenomena throughout the ages that turned out to be totally of natural causes.

as a result of the unknown nature of the boundary between the supernatural and the natural and the self correcting, ever evolving nature of scientific inquiry...to say that science does not have the ability to explain everything is ludicrous.


and it directly contradicts your stated beliefs as a supposed agnostic...because it is a finite statement. you dont know that science cant explain it all. unless you can explain to me, with supporting physical evidence exactly how the supposed supernatural IS in FACT supernatural.
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21-11-2010, 10:19 AM
RE: "True Atheists are Hypocrites"
Hey, Hauser.

I didn't take it as a personal insult. I took it as a dismissal of everything that has gone on in this thread. I didn't apreciate it at all. I feel that it's easy to take away from and undermine conversations but that it's hard to contribute to them. That's what I reacted to.

You can tell anyone that they're rigid and immovable. If they say they aren't you can say, "ha. proves my point." But that doesn't make it so. My worldview is not an Atheist worldview. If people object to my terminology, it's their right, but I am what I am. The fact is, I have a position. As does everyone. If I don't change it because people introduce what I feel are insufficient arguments, that doesn't make me rigid. If you want to say I'm rigid and not here to explore and pretend that that somehow advances the conversation, then keep saying it. My record is clear on this forum. I stand by it. And as far as this thread, this has been the progression. This guy is dumb --> Actually he has a good point --> Nope --> Actually yes, because of this --> Nope. So how that makes ME rigid is beyond me.

Who did I misquote? Greene or the physicist that asked if it was science or philosophy? What's the actual quote?

Saying that science has limits is not a redefinition of science.

The line between the natural and the supernatural is crystal clear. The natural is everything in the universe caused by and or governed by natural law. The supernatural, theoretically, is all that is above and beyond natural law. Of course there have been supernatural claims that have been debunked. But that doesn't prove there's no supernatural, it proves that those specific things were natural phenomenon.

Science is not only based entirely on the premise that everything in the unvierse can be explained by natural law, it uses those natural laws to draw its conclusions. You're a biologist? Explain to me how you can do what you do WITHOUT natural law.

Natural law means universals. Same way everywhere always. It is the universality of natural law that allows science to function. By DEFINITION, the supernatural cannot be explained by natural law and it cannot be measured by natural law. All of that is just fact. The question is, can science function despite these things or does this constitute a limit to science?

I agree with you that science is a self-correcting process. But if there's no way to explain or measure the supernatural, how can it be scrutinised?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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