True love! Or not!
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22-03-2016, 01:17 AM
RE: True love! Or not!
(21-03-2016 05:45 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  its so funny though. they say that they "escaped" hell. but in return they have to please god enough to not be thrown into the outer darkness and shadows of heaven. the one thing my preacher used to say that got me was "heaven isn't a happy place" because if you fail to do whats required of you.. well you lose all of your rewards, burnt up in front of you. or you get the "turn from me I never knew you" speech from jesus (I am well on my way to that part) or you can fail to preach to someone and when they are tossed into the eternal fire pit YOU are blamed for their non belief, their blood is on your hands. and well there is also the mention of weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven too.. WHO WANTS THAT?!?!?

It's simply bad marketing to say that heaven isn't much different from hell. Looks like preacher wasn't brightest one around.

(21-03-2016 06:12 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I think we all just define it in our own ways though, love is different for everyone but once you have it even if it's unique it doesn't mean it's wrong. I think it's important to understand love always has standards and it should. No one should love anyone who is abusive, mean, evil, etc. If Jesus can love a serial killer but can't open his heart to an atheist doctor researching a cure for cancer than I question his judgement. It makes me feel his love pretty worthless in that case, if you love everyone, you love no one.

I may be wrong but it's not like you can decide to fall in love with right person. If that's the case then love hardly can have standards.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-03-2016, 03:01 AM
RE: True love! Or not!
True love is about truth and love.
Religion is all about delusion and lies.
I think you'll find that these concepts (true love & religion) have nothing in common.

I truly have loved only a few people with my entire heart. My son's mother was my first true love. After she died, it took me decades to find another true love.
It's the kind of love that lasts a lifetime, even if the relationship doesn't.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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22-03-2016, 06:37 AM
RE: True love! Or not!
(21-03-2016 09:04 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I don't see what's wrong with divorce.... you grow up, you grow apart. What's wrong with acknowledging your differences and moving on? When a partnership, especially one that was entered into at a very young age, no longer services the couple, then why shouldn't the couple feel proud and confident to call it quits and find new partners who are more suited?

Because, if you support your partner through their growth, and they support you, no matter whether you even approve of it, both of you will blossom.

What you describe I call a fling. A temporary infatuation, a short stop on the road. It has it's place, I have had those, too. I don't call it love. My longest fling lasted 3 years.

But there is so much more. A seasoned partnership, where I got your back no matter what, and you got mine, breeds an intimacy that is hard to describe.

If you just want rolls in the hay and a few parties and such, there is nothing wrong with that (long as your partner sees it the same way).

A life partner improves your entire life, whatever you endeavor they are there to help you reach your goal better and faster. If either of you doesn't support the other, it won't work. Real love is unconditional, you trust the person to choose their path for themselves and you help them as they go. Real love doesn't need you two to choose the same paths. You can follow totally different interests. This makes the relationship even richer, as both are exposed to things they would normally not explore.

Given that basis, the longer the relationship, the more intimate and rewarding it gets.

Sadly, this sort of relationship has always been rare and still is. It fails when people try to squeeze themselves into predetermined roles. It fails when people are "judgy". Unconditional love takes being happy if your partner is who they want to be, when each of you can develop freely.

I don't have the words to describe to you how uplifting, how energizing, how stabilizing, how intimate a mature love is. It's a pity not more people experience it. The world would be a better place all around if everyone could.

But again, there is nothing wrong with flings. Especially when you are young. They are not unconditional love, but they do have a lot to give, too.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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22-03-2016, 07:33 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 07:37 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: True love! Or not!
(21-03-2016 05:18 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  so I saw this post earlier about explaining love or whatever. It reminded me of a sermon from church that I used to believe with my whole heart. Basically the church teaches that without God and accepting Jesus you can not experience true love. Without the ultimate sacrifice you just have no clue what love is.
So tell me guys.. Are you loveless? Have you truly not experienced true love?! What the hell even defines true love?
All answers accepted because I'm sure someone will get smart/ sarcastic/ weird (those are the most fun)

This is just another unsupported assertion by mystics. If you don't believe in my god then you can't truly love, have knowledge of anything, be certain of anything, make sense of the world, use logic, fill in the blank. So your love is false, your knowledge is false, logic won't work for you and simply by believing in a god which you have no alternative but to imagine, poof, all of these things become possible.

I think religion is a crime of such scale and proportion that it goes unnoticed, like inflation. It works silently and insidiously in a culture until one day the absurd is accepted as the norm and anyone who speaks out against it is the crazy one.

I was at a damned rodeo a couple of years ago and the announcers decides to throw in a little proselytizing. He said, and I quote, you can't love your wife properly or your family or be a good father or husband unless you accept Jeeeeeeeessssssssus Christ into your heart. The audience applauded. We are done as a culture I think. On the way out.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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22-03-2016, 08:14 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2016 08:36 AM by carol.)
RE: True love! Or not!
(22-03-2016 01:17 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I may be wrong but it's not like you can decide to fall in love with right person. If that's the case then love hardly can have standards.

I have a different opinion, which I will try to explain. I will start with the idea that people have a natural and inate ability to feel concern and love.

For example, to start with a very simple type of affection, you can go to a pound, adopt a dog that is reasonably well adjusted, and many people will learn to love that dog. After a period of time, usually they will feel as if the dog is a great dog, a special dog. Actually, both the dog and human has learned to love each other. It is likely that there were many other dogs that the person would have learned to love, but it does not matter. Petting a dog will produce serotonin, prolactin and oxytocin in humans, and decrease cortisol. Dogs, when petted, produce oxytocin:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mad...5/dog-good
It becomes a positive feedback loop.

When thinking about love with other humans, I believe the biological basis of bonding is layered, you will have the basic physical bonding, like with your pet, but added to that so much more- emotionally and physically. For example, if you give birth to a child, the parent does not have a choice which child they have, but a healthy parent and heathy chlld learn to love each other deeply. If you do not give birth to a child, a person can still completely and utterly love an adopted child- because learning to love is a human response.

It is easier still to learn to love another adult- because you get the fun of having sex, and finding common interests, and all of the interesting things adults can do. if you can believe that there are... say a dozen people that you would be able to learn to love, and make sure that you do not get overly involved with crazy dysfunctional people, and then have a lot of great sex, a lot of shared experiences, a lot of fun- and learn how to support each other in personal growth, and honor the agreements you make and so on- you learn to love.

Is it possible I could have loved another person? Yes, but it does not matter at all. The depth and intensity and trust involved is completely based upon the ability for me to become trustworthy, loving, passionate, honorable, supportive...and also upon the person I love. Extraordinary people develop extraordinary loves, together- like a creative act based upon the growth and ability to love within the people involved. People actually create it- and the test of the love is completely based upon the people involved. You can create the love using all of your human skills- physically, emotionally, intellectually- and the better that you are at it, the better the relationship becomes...
Love is a test of the ability to become a person who is trustworthy, interesting, passionate, exciting, interesting, flexible...I do not 'fall in" love, I chose to jump in, feet first...after consideration.
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22-03-2016, 09:27 AM
RE: True love! Or not!
(22-03-2016 07:33 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 05:18 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  so I saw this post earlier about explaining love or whatever. It reminded me of a sermon from church that I used to believe with my whole heart. Basically the church teaches that without God and accepting Jesus you can not experience true love. Without the ultimate sacrifice you just have no clue what love is.
So tell me guys.. Are you loveless? Have you truly not experienced true love?! What the hell even defines true love?
All answers accepted because I'm sure someone will get smart/ sarcastic/ weird (those are the most fun)

This is just another unsupported assertion by mystics. If you don't believe in my god then you can't truly love, have knowledge of anything, be certain of anything, make sense of the world, use logic, fill in the blank. So your love is false, your knowledge is false, logic won't work for you and simply by believing in a god which you have no alternative but to imagine, poof, all of these things become possible.

I think religion is a crime of such scale and proportion that it goes unnoticed, like inflation. It works silently and insidiously in a culture until one day the absurd is accepted as the norm and anyone who speaks out against it is the crazy one.

I was at a damned rodeo a couple of years ago and the announcers decides to throw in a little proselytizing. He said, and I quote, you can't love your wife properly or your family or be a good father or husband unless you accept Jeeeeeeeessssssssus Christ into your heart. The audience applauded. We are done as a culture I think. On the way out.

thats what my church said! you cant love without jesus! its annoying for me to think about now.
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22-03-2016, 01:16 PM
RE: True love! Or not!
(22-03-2016 01:17 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(21-03-2016 05:45 PM)Jewelarcher Wrote:  its so funny though. they say that they "escaped" hell. but in return they have to please god enough to not be thrown into the outer darkness and shadows of heaven. the one thing my preacher used to say that got me was "heaven isn't a happy place" because if you fail to do whats required of you.. well you lose all of your rewards, burnt up in front of you. or you get the "turn from me I never knew you" speech from jesus (I am well on my way to that part) or you can fail to preach to someone and when they are tossed into the eternal fire pit YOU are blamed for their non belief, their blood is on your hands. and well there is also the mention of weeping and gnashing of teeth in heaven too.. WHO WANTS THAT?!?!?

It's simply bad marketing to say that heaven isn't much different from hell. Looks like preacher wasn't brightest one around.

(21-03-2016 06:12 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I think we all just define it in our own ways though, love is different for everyone but once you have it even if it's unique it doesn't mean it's wrong. I think it's important to understand love always has standards and it should. No one should love anyone who is abusive, mean, evil, etc. If Jesus can love a serial killer but can't open his heart to an atheist doctor researching a cure for cancer than I question his judgement. It makes me feel his love pretty worthless in that case, if you love everyone, you love no one.

I may be wrong but it's not like you can decide to fall in love with right person. If that's the case then love hardly can have standards.

Well like I said everyone is different, someone may be able to love someone without even trying and they may be a terrible person who has committed terrible crimes but that's their standards. They are somehow able to look past those things and still they love them.

A lot of time when I'm talking to a hippie type of person and they say they love everyone after enough time I can poke holes and eventually the admit they don't really love everyone but just humankind as a whole and they think everyone just by being born and existing is enough to deserve love which is a nice sentiment. It may be true but in the end who we end up falling in love with may not be in our control but we still have certain standards we may not even be totally aware of until we sit and think about it. It could be a simple as seeing the inherent worth and value in someone, even if they've done terrible things but somehow they radiate a goodness only you can see. It's still love and they are still your personal standards.

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22-03-2016, 01:44 PM
RE: True love! Or not!
(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Well like I said everyone is different, someone may be able to love someone without even trying and they may be a terrible person who has committed terrible crimes but that's their standards. They are somehow able to look past those things and still they love them.

Agreed.

(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  A lot of time when I'm talking to a hippie type of person and they say they love everyone after enough time I can poke holes and eventually the admit they don't really love everyone but just humankind as a whole and they think everyone just by being born and existing is enough to deserve love which is a nice sentiment.

I would say it's childish and infantile sentiment, just like hippie Jesus saying that we should love our enemies.

(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  It may be true but in the end who we end up falling in love with may not be in our control but we still have certain standards we may not even be totally aware of until we sit and think about it.

You have some proof of those certain standards that we may not be aware of?

(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  It could be a simple as seeing the inherent worth and value in someone, even if they've done terrible things but somehow they radiate a goodness only you can see. It's still love and they are still your personal standards.

It feel contradictory to me - if someone is guilty of something truly terrible then we hardly could ascribe him inherent worth or goodness.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-03-2016, 02:04 PM
RE: True love! Or not!
(22-03-2016 01:44 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  Well like I said everyone is different, someone may be able to love someone without even trying and they may be a terrible person who has committed terrible crimes but that's their standards. They are somehow able to look past those things and still they love them.

Agreed.

(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  A lot of time when I'm talking to a hippie type of person and they say they love everyone after enough time I can poke holes and eventually the admit they don't really love everyone but just humankind as a whole and they think everyone just by being born and existing is enough to deserve love which is a nice sentiment.

I would say it's childish and infantile sentiment, just like hippie Jesus saying that we should love our enemies.

(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  It may be true but in the end who we end up falling in love with may not be in our control but we still have certain standards we may not even be totally aware of until we sit and think about it.

You have some proof of those certain standards that we may not be aware of?

(22-03-2016 01:16 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  It could be a simple as seeing the inherent worth and value in someone, even if they've done terrible things but somehow they radiate a goodness only you can see. It's still love and they are still your personal standards.

It feel contradictory to me - if someone is guilty of something truly terrible then we hardly could ascribe him inherent worth or goodness.

I totally agree, that's why I can't stand hippie Christians, I mean if we had to give them a choice to condemn someone who had committed a crime they would most likely agree so how can they be all loving and all forgiving but still agree some people should be kept away from society? It's hard to keep those standards up for what is acceptable and still "love" everyone equally. I could agree they may have some worth and could still be productive to society but their goodness would be up for debate.

I'm trying to think of an example of something we might not be aware of at first...I think maybe those girls who act like mass shooters like James Holmes are so cute/hot and then go around acting like he should be set free, get mental help and then marry them. It's easy to think "What the hell is wrong with these girls?" but they honestly think these guys are good deep down but really they're just sexually attracted to them. They may not be fully aware of that at first but it can happen to anyone. I had a crush on a bad boy I went to school with, the first time he flirted with me he was so aggressive and rude about it I instantly stopped liking him, later I realized I just thought he was cute, he was never really worth my time but in my mind I convinced myself he was a great guy.

I think it could be a lot of things, I mean you could fall in love with a doctor who saved your life and not realize you've placed him on a pedestal or love someone who is so different than anyone you've ever met, they're just so unique but not necessarily worthy of love or even a good person until you realize it later. You just wanted to rebel against your family or were bored by everyone you knew.

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22-03-2016, 02:21 PM
RE: True love! Or not!
(22-03-2016 02:04 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I totally agree, that's why I can't stand hippie Christians, I mean if we had to give them a choice to condemn someone who had committed a crime they would most likely agree so how can they be all loving and all forgiving but still agree some people should be kept away from society? It's hard to keep those standards up for what is acceptable and still "love" everyone equally. I could agree they may have some worth and could still be productive to society but their goodness would be up for debate.

I couldn't care less about hippie christians as claiming as their claims about them loving everyone are irritant at worst. I think it's idiotic view but I care not about what they think as long as they do not try to force their taboos onto others.

(22-03-2016 02:04 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I'm trying to think of an example of something we might not be aware of at first...I think maybe those girls who act like mass shooters like James Holmes are so cute/hot and then go around acting like he should be set free, get mental help and then marry them. It's easy to think "What the hell is wrong with these girls?" but they honestly think these guys are good deep down but really they're just sexually attracted to them.

The thing is I don't think you could say what girls in question really feel. Sure, maybe such girls really think that murderers are all cuddly but misunderstood or some shit like this, but they also could simply not care or want some sick bite of fame.

(22-03-2016 02:04 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  They may not be fully aware of that at first but it can happen to anyone. I had a crush on a bad boy I went to school with, the first time he flirted with me he was so aggressive and rude about it I instantly stopped liking him, later I realized I just thought he was cute, he was never really worth my time but in my mind I convinced myself he was a great guy.


Bad boy and killer are two different things. And it's kinda like anecdotal evidence - fact that you felt x in some circumstances does not mean that everyone else will feel x in those circumstances.

(22-03-2016 02:04 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  I think it could be a lot of things, I mean you could fall in love with a doctor who saved your life and not realize you've placed him on a pedestal or love someone who is so different than anyone you've ever met, they're just so unique but not necessarily worthy of love or even a good person until you realize it later. You just wanted to rebel against your family or were bored by everyone you knew.

That is kinda my point - you don't choose person with which you fall in love. It simply happens. But I easily could be wrong as neither romance nor neurochemistry are of much interest to me.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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