Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
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12-03-2016, 04:05 AM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
You know what's strange? The people who organized the protests in Chicago (Black Lives Matter supporters) also shut down one of Bernie's rallies last year and he's the most liberal, pro-black candidate there is. What exactly do they want?



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12-03-2016, 04:17 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2016 04:20 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
(12-03-2016 03:25 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Nationalism preceded the Treaty and Republic was thought as something un-German. Republic was also despised for cultural liberalism and new trends in the art which middle class deemed wrong [Evans, The Coming..., s. 144 of Polish edition]. Treaty could hardly be blamed for that.

Having said that trety was major "fault" of the Republic and it's lack of legitimization certainly could be tied with it. But not all criticism of it was tied to Versailles.


I get it, my point was just that the treaty is arguably the largest elephant in the room. Without the national pride being dealt such a blow by the admission of guilt in the treaty, the ultra-nationalists wouldn't have had nearly the appeal or political leverage. One of the most popular things Hitler did was announce Germany's intent to refuse paying war reparations, then he went through with it. Which was an ingenious bit of political brinkmanship, because what were the other nations going to do about it? Short of war they could do nothing, and nobody had the wherewithal to start another war, and Hitler knew it. He called their bluff and won spectacularly. He instead poured that money back into rebuilding Germany, and as their nation geared up for another war, their economy boomed. The last thing anybody in the rest of Europe wanted Hitler to do, was precisely the most politically advantageous thing he could do; and they only had themselves to blame for forcing Germany into such a precarious position.


Not only that, but people can put up with a lot of shit provided they have a job and can support themselves and their families. But the war destroyed their economy, and the treaty handicapped any chances at recovers. So combine that discontent with a broken economy, and a government that is seemingly powerless to fix it and provide for it's citizens? That's a powder keg just waiting to be ignited. There is a reason why after the second World War, the United States pumped billions of dollars into rebuilding their defeated adversaries. Just look at them now, Germany and Japan wouldn't be the staunch allies and economic powerhouses today if not for the actions of the Allies at the end of the war; actions informed by the mistakes of the first World War.

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12-03-2016, 05:05 AM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  I get it, my point was just that the treaty is arguably the largest elephant in the room.

In this I agree.

(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Without the national pride being dealt such a blow by the admission of guilt in the treaty, the ultra-nationalists wouldn't have had nearly the appeal or political leverage.

I think that losing the war would be big enough blow to the national pride.

(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  One of the most popular things Hitler did was announce Germany's intent to refuse paying war reparations, then he went through with it. Which was an ingenious bit of political brinkmanship, because what were the other nations going to do about it?

There was something that other nations could have done. Just remember the French and Belgian occupation of Ruhr which began in January of 1923 when Germans didn't send enough coal to France which was one of peace treaty stipulations. [R. Evans, The Coming of the Third Reich, s. 127 of Polish edition].

Issue is that - when peace treaty which you force onto other is tough you better have will and power to enforce it. It's not that other countries couldn't done something about reparations, it's that they lacked will to do it, or at least such is my take.

(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Short of war they could do nothing, and nobody had the wherewithal to start another war, and Hitler knew it. He called their bluff and won spectacularly.

Another occupation like that in 1923 would be possible I think without starting the war. Possible and probable though are different things.

And yes Hitler was good on bluffing, but it didn't take too much of brain power to figure that war isn't something that western democracies want.

(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  He instead poured that money back into rebuilding Germany, and as their nation geared up for another war, their economy boomed.

Booming of the economy is disputable as policy of rearming created enormous debt which would be hard to tackle without going to war. For example gov was forced to froze the prices in 1936 to avoid inflation as great as that in twenties [Richard Evans, The Third Reich in Power, s. 332 of Polish edition].

On the subject of economy I would recommend Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State by Götz Aly.

(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  The last thing anybody in the rest of Europe wanted Hitler to do, was precisely the most politically advantageous thing he could do; and they only had themselves to blame for forcing Germany into such a precarious position.

Rearming in Reich was just running into abyss thanks to the effect it has on the economy. Also western powers weren't overly tough with Germany after first few years as Young Plan and after it Lausanne conference where Entente waived* reparations shows. Considering that Lausanne happened in 1932 Hitler hardly could be forced to remilitarize because of reparations.

(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Not only that, but people can put up with a lot of shit provided they have a job and can support themselves and their families. But the war destroyed their economy, and the treaty handicapped any chances at recovers. So combine that discontent with a broken economy, and a government that is seemingly powerless to fix it and provide for it's citizens?

It's could be asking for disaster, yes. But it's not like Germans were blameless or like they paid all that was demanded. It's not only German infrastructure that was destroyed by war. One could even say that II Reich got of lightly considering that war was waged in other countries territory.

Biggest issue with treaty was not it's unfairness as it is highly subjective term and fairness and politics aren't really bed partners. Lack of will to enforce what was agreed was the problem I would say.

In the end however what allies done after WW II I deem as more sensible approach.

(12-03-2016 04:17 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  That's a powder keg just waiting to be ignited. There is a reason why after the second World War, the United States pumped billions of dollars into rebuilding their defeated adversaries. Just look at them now, Germany and Japan wouldn't be the staunch allies and economic powerhouses today if not for the actions of the Allies at the end of the war; actions informed by the mistakes of the first World War.

Agreed. But you know past is foreign country and things are done differently there. It's easy to say what should be done with power of hindsight. Forcing the treaty on Weimar Republic was not equal with emergence of Reich some years later.

*There is difference between Polish and English wiki - Polish says that reparations were waived, English that they were suspended and then reduced as by Young's Plan.

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12-03-2016, 11:17 AM (This post was last modified: 12-03-2016 12:49 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
(12-03-2016 03:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(12-03-2016 03:41 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  As an Australian, this foreigner concept of 'staying home' on election day confuses me.


Here's a crash course for all you non-Americans, or for those sufficiently un-American Americans (you know who you are).


http://theoatmeal.com/comics/america

^ FUCK YEAH, THE OATMEAL.COM!

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My only complaint is that those are officially named FREEDOM Fries to real 'mericans.

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12-03-2016, 11:45 AM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
So the question is, Cruz or Trump. Who would you rather be the republican candidate.

[Image: Guilmon-41189.gif] https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOW_Ioi2wtuPa88FvBmnBgQ my youtube
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12-03-2016, 12:34 PM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
I am really sick of the, "Black Lives Matter," people. Their message is important but they need a lot of help in their method of delivery. They probably turn off more people than they bring to their cause.

I would prefer that Donald Trump be elected president over Ted Cruz. I believe that Ted Cruz may be the biggest danger to freedom in America that we have seen in the last 60 years. Nevertheless, I prefer Sanders over all the candidates even though I believe that both parties have weak slates.
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12-03-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
(12-03-2016 01:55 AM)Alla Wrote:  I am not against protests. I myself protest against D.Trump.
I am against shutting down his speech.

If he were a decent human being he could have gone out and calmed the crowds and made his speech but you see, he's not. He's an instigator of hate and encourages the violence. No one really kept him from making his speech except himself. He created the atmosphere that led to this. He lit the fire and then got burned and is blaming everyone else for it.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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12-03-2016, 12:43 PM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
(12-03-2016 04:05 AM)Vosur Wrote:  You know what's strange? The people who organized the protests in Chicago (Black Lives Matter supporters) also shut down one of Bernie's rallies last year and he's the most liberal, pro-black candidate there is. What exactly do they want?



This seems to be how many SJW's want to be heard. And after acting like that I wouldn't be interested in hearing what they would have to say. Even after a compromise tried to reached.

But you know what didn't happen.

They didn't get punched in the face.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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12-03-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
(11-03-2016 05:02 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The primary motivation behind it was curiosity. I've been following the U.S. presidential race with great interest for about half a year now. I wasn't lying when I said that it is unlike anything I've ever seen in politics before. The political system we have in Germany is very boring for the average citizen. We don't even get to vote directly for our head of state so it's very difficult for personality cults to follow the way they do in the US. Both Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump have their own fiercely loyal personality cults and while I think that neither of them are fit to be president, I'm fascinated by their ability to manipulate the masses into supporting them based on unrealistic promises. Their rallies are attended by thousands, sometimes tens of thousands of people, something that none of the other candidates in this election cycle have been able to achieve.

I spend most of my day at work reading posts on the forums of Sanders and Trump supporters and watching the rallies and debates of these candidates (though I have to say that the Democratic debates make for lousy entertainment). Based on that experience, I know that the (online) supporters of both candidates are very protective of them and react with varying degrees of hostility if either their candidate is attacked or the candidate from the other political spectrum is promoted as a better alternative. I was curious to see what would happen if I advocated for Trump in a place that I knew to be politically liberal and most likely supportive of Bernie (It was only an assumption at first, but it turned out to be true later on). I started out mildly at first and didn't get much of a reaction as a result, but I found that the more outlandishly and aggressively I pushed for him, the more hostile the people here would become. Unfortunately for me, long-time members of this forum like Dom started to notice the sudden change in behavior and then GirlyMan sealed the deal by repeatedly calling me out on it.

Anyway, my money is still on Trump for the White House. I don't think he should become president, but the longer I follow this race, the more inevitable his presidency seems to me. Just like GirlyMan said, I know all about nationalistic populist leaders and believe me when I say that their rise to power is very difficult to stop once they get going. "You Can't Stump The Trump" isn't just a meme, it's a reality of this election cycle. His movement consists of the most loyal people I've ever seen and it only grows stronger with every passing day. There was a point in time when he could have been stopped, but that point has long passed.

I sincerely hope for all of my American friends that the anti-establishment movement that Bernie and Trump started will give birth to an outsider candidate who can offer a moderate alternative to their extreme left-wing and right-wing positions.

Jack-ass.

In an attempt to understand why a person who I consider normally sane and level-headed had devolved into a Trump cheerleader I went and read through his website. If you can believe it, it was worse than I had feared. Each and every point and promise could not have been more vapid, vacant and bereft of meaning had they been written by a lobotomized Spice Girl.

I will not be getting those brain cells back.

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12-03-2016, 01:17 PM
RE: Trump Rally goes Thunderdome
This happened today while I was watching the Ohio rally live on YouTube:



The Secret Service really doesn't fuck around. I'm impressed by how quickly these agents took that guy down considering how close he was to the stage and how fast he was running.

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