Trump bans transgender from military
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27-07-2017, 01:34 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:25 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 12:48 PM)Emma Wrote:  I don't know you because you came and left while I was away I guess, but I assume you've got a position to share on this subject since it seems you're studying to be a chaplain (based on your rep comments Tongue)? If so- let's hear it.
For the record, my intention is not to simply share my personal opinion. I intend to share an objective point of view. So i neither support nor reject this position. Just a little background information. I am a commissioned officer in the Marine Corps who is currently working to become a Navy Chaplain. In my unit, we currently have 4 transgender Marines. I am not quite sure what the procedures look like out in the private sector, but from what I have seen in the Marine Corps, the process is extensive.

In order to complete the "transformation" process in the military. After the first surgery, the individual would be on convalescent leave for 21 days. Immediately after that, it is another 30 days leave after their second surgery. 60 days after their third surgery. For the fourth surgery they need to fly to Oregon (paid by the government) and spend 30 days in the hospital and spend another 60 on leave to recover only to have to repeat the process two more times.When it is all said and done, the individual can never deploy because they are required to receive hormone therapy for the rest of their lives.

From what I have seen, a transgender service member would spend the majority of their 4 year contract on leave and can never deploy?

It is also important to note that the military has never been equal opportunity and serving is not a right. Recruiters reject more people every day than they take in. People are disqualified if the are too young, too old, too fat, too skinny, have medical disabilities, too many tatoos or pearcings, prior drug use, or criminal records. So if being transgender is a legit medical condition, the military is completely within their legal grounds to make that medical condition a disqualifiable.

The military makes its determination on disqualifications based on cost vs benefit. So based on the information that I have provided, what benefit would the military gain by allowing for transgender service members and how will if improve military readiness?



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Can you provide information on what procedures are being done for surgeries 1-3? And are the required? I personally don't currently intend to receive any surgeries- at least not yet, maybe some day.

Typical surgeries for trans women tend to include all or none of the following:
facial feminization surgery
breast augmentation
Vaginoplasty
and on rare occasion- hip augmentation (aka, brazillian butt lift)

Additionally- what is the reason for restricting deployment based on hormone medications? Trans people are capable of engaging in all manner of physical activities (from long distance running to MMA boxing) while on hormones.
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27-07-2017, 01:39 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:25 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 12:48 PM)Emma Wrote:  I don't know you because you came and left while I was away I guess, but I assume you've got a position to share on this subject since it seems you're studying to be a chaplain (based on your rep comments Tongue)? If so- let's hear it.
For the record, my intention is not to simply share my personal opinion. I intend to share an objective point of view. So i neither support nor reject this position. Just a little background information. I am a commissioned officer in the Marine Corps who is currently working to become a Navy Chaplain. In my unit, we currently have 4 transgender Marines. I am not quite sure what the procedures look like out in the private sector, but from what I have seen in the Marine Corps, the process is extensive.

In order to complete the "transformation" process in the military. After the first surgery, the individual would be on convalescent leave for 21 days. Immediately after that, it is another 30 days leave after their second surgery. 60 days after their third surgery. For the fourth surgery they need to fly to Oregon (paid by the government) and spend 30 days in the hospital and spend another 60 on leave to recover only to have to repeat the process two more times.When it is all said and done, the individual can never deploy because they are required to receive hormone therapy for the rest of their lives.

From what I have seen, a transgender service member would spend the majority of their 4 year contract on leave and can never deploy?

It is also important to note that the military has never been equal opportunity and serving is not a right. Recruiters reject more people every day than they take in. People are disqualified if the are too young, too old, too fat, too skinny, have medical disabilities, too many tatoos or pearcings, prior drug use, or criminal records. So if being transgender is a legit medical condition, the military is completely within their legal grounds to make that medical condition a disqualifiable.

The military makes its determination on disqualifications based on cost vs benefit. So based on the information that I have provided, what benefit would the military gain by allowing for transgender service members and how will if improve military readiness?



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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trum...ue-n786891
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...s-military

Your assertions about the medical costs and the labor disruption of transgender military personnel are not borne out by the articles above. Also, your assumptions that all transgender military members will inevitably 1) opt for full surgical reassignment and 2) do this during their active military service are incorrect.

There are currently several thousand transgender military personnel; as far as I can see, none of the armed services has gone broke yet.
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27-07-2017, 01:42 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
Yeah, I, too, was rather taken aback by the outright assumption that each and every single trans* person would join immediately before undergoing the entire spectrum of sex reassignment surgeries and procedures.

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27-07-2017, 01:45 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:34 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 01:25 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  For the record, my intention is not to simply share my personal opinion. I intend to share an objective point of view. So i neither support nor reject this position. Just a little background information. I am a commissioned officer in the Marine Corps who is currently working to become a Navy Chaplain. In my unit, we currently have 4 transgender Marines. I am not quite sure what the procedures look like out in the private sector, but from what I have seen in the Marine Corps, the process is extensive.

In order to complete the "transformation" process in the military. After the first surgery, the individual would be on convalescent leave for 21 days. Immediately after that, it is another 30 days leave after their second surgery. 60 days after their third surgery. For the fourth surgery they need to fly to Oregon (paid by the government) and spend 30 days in the hospital and spend another 60 on leave to recover only to have to repeat the process two more times.When it is all said and done, the individual can never deploy because they are required to receive hormone therapy for the rest of their lives.

From what I have seen, a transgender service member would spend the majority of their 4 year contract on leave and can never deploy?

It is also important to note that the military has never been equal opportunity and serving is not a right. Recruiters reject more people every day than they take in. People are disqualified if the are too young, too old, too fat, too skinny, have medical disabilities, too many tatoos or pearcings, prior drug use, or criminal records. So if being transgender is a legit medical condition, the military is completely within their legal grounds to make that medical condition a disqualifiable.

The military makes its determination on disqualifications based on cost vs benefit. So based on the information that I have provided, what benefit would the military gain by allowing for transgender service members and how will if improve military readiness?



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Can you provide information on what procedures are being done for surgeries 1-3? And are the required? I personally don't currently intend to receive any surgeries- at least not yet, maybe some day.

Typical surgeries for trans women tend to include all or none of the following:
facial feminization surgery
breast augmentation
Vaginoplasty
and on rare occasion- hip augmentation (aka, brazillian butt lift)

Additionally- what is the reason for restricting deployment based on hormone medications? Trans people are capable of engaging in all manner of physical activities (from long distance running to MMA boxing) while on hormones.
For the female to male transformation, the first surgery is the removal of the mammery glands (breast removal). I am not quite sure what the second and third surgery is. I think it involve removal is some of the internal reproductive organs but don't quote me on that. Of course the fourth and fifth surgery is the "installation of new hardware".

As far as the hormone question, I am not a doctor. However, transgenders can still serve in the military in supporting roles. They just can't deploy in combat zones because nothing can guarantee that they will be able to access their prescriptions. How are they going to get their refills in a fighting hole in the mountains of Afghanistan for example. To be honest though, I have no idea what the health risks are for someone if they stop their hormones cold turkey. But I don't imagine it would be good.

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27-07-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:39 PM)julep Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 01:25 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  For the record, my intention is not to simply share my personal opinion. I intend to share an objective point of view. So i neither support nor reject this position. Just a little background information. I am a commissioned officer in the Marine Corps who is currently working to become a Navy Chaplain. In my unit, we currently have 4 transgender Marines. I am not quite sure what the procedures look like out in the private sector, but from what I have seen in the Marine Corps, the process is extensive.

In order to complete the "transformation" process in the military. After the first surgery, the individual would be on convalescent leave for 21 days. Immediately after that, it is another 30 days leave after their second surgery. 60 days after their third surgery. For the fourth surgery they need to fly to Oregon (paid by the government) and spend 30 days in the hospital and spend another 60 on leave to recover only to have to repeat the process two more times.When it is all said and done, the individual can never deploy because they are required to receive hormone therapy for the rest of their lives.

From what I have seen, a transgender service member would spend the majority of their 4 year contract on leave and can never deploy?

It is also important to note that the military has never been equal opportunity and serving is not a right. Recruiters reject more people every day than they take in. People are disqualified if the are too young, too old, too fat, too skinny, have medical disabilities, too many tatoos or pearcings, prior drug use, or criminal records. So if being transgender is a legit medical condition, the military is completely within their legal grounds to make that medical condition a disqualifiable.

The military makes its determination on disqualifications based on cost vs benefit. So based on the information that I have provided, what benefit would the military gain by allowing for transgender service members and how will if improve military readiness?



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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trum...ue-n786891
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...s-military

Your assertions about the medical costs and the labor disruption of transgender military personnel are not borne out by the articles above. Also, your assumptions that all transgender military members will inevitably 1) opt for full surgical reassignment and 2) do this during their active military service are incorrect.

There are currently several thousand transgender military personnel; as far as I can see, none of the armed services has gone broke yet.
You also have to remember how long transgender service members have been able to openly serve in the military. As of right now, nobody in the Marine Corps have gone past the third surgery because the policy has not been in place long enough. There is one transgender Marine in my unit who is going to be the first to be sent to Oregon and everyone is up the chain of command is watching him like a lab rat.

Also, I might add that when the military looks at cost/benefit, they are not just looking at money. They want to know what they can get in return from their investment. What can the military hope to gain? How is military readiness improved?

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27-07-2017, 01:51 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
Of the days on leave you've listed, that's 201 days on leave, out of 1460 days in a 4 year span- roughly 14%, hardly more than a majority. I'm not saying that that's not significant in said cost/benefit ratio considerations- but it's worth noting. Presumably, aside from the 179 days of Marine Corps training, they should have roughly 3 years of active duty service.
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27-07-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:25 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 12:48 PM)Emma Wrote:  I don't know you because you came and left while I was away I guess, but I assume you've got a position to share on this subject since it seems you're studying to be a chaplain (based on your rep comments Tongue)? If so- let's hear it.
For the record, my intention is not to simply share my personal opinion. I intend to share an objective point of view. So i neither support nor reject this position. Just a little background information. I am a commissioned officer in the Marine Corps who is currently working to become a Navy Chaplain. In my unit, we currently have 4 transgender Marines. I am not quite sure what the procedures look like out in the private sector, but from what I have seen in the Marine Corps, the process is extensive.

In order to complete the "transformation" process in the military. After the first surgery, the individual would be on convalescent leave for 21 days. Immediately after that, it is another 30 days leave after their second surgery. 60 days after their third surgery. For the fourth surgery they need to fly to Oregon (paid by the government) and spend 30 days in the hospital and spend another 60 on leave to recover only to have to repeat the process two more times. When it is all said and done, the individual can never deploy because they are required to receive hormone therapy for the rest of their lives.

From what I have seen, a transgender service member would spend the majority of their 4 year contract on leave and can never deploy.

It is also important to note that the military has never been equal opportunity and serving is not a right. Recruiters reject more people every day than they take in. People are disqualified if the are too young, too old, too fat, too skinny, have medical disabilities, too many tatoos or pearcings, prior drug use, or criminal records. So if being transgender is a legit medical condition, the military is completely within their legal grounds to make that medical condition a disqualifiable.

The military makes its determination on disqualifications based on cost vs benefit. So based on the information that I have provided, what benefit would the military gain by allowing for transgender service members and how will if improve military readiness?



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There are thousands of them serving in every capacity now, with no problems ... doctors, code breakers, every sort of job. Trump did this to change the narrative, to appease his base, as every thing else he promised has failed.

Glad you're back Jase.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-07-2017, 01:59 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:51 PM)Emma Wrote:  Of the days on leave you've listed, that's 201 days on leave, out of 1460 days in a 4 year span- roughly 14%, hardly more than a majority. I'm not saying that that's not significant in said cost/benefit ratio considerations- but it's worth noting. Presumably, aside from the 179 days of Marine Corps training, they should have roughly 3 years of active duty service.
Perhaps "majority" may not have been accurate so you are correct. However, 6 months of leave is a long duration. But the non-deployment thing is a big concern for the military. After all, the purpose of the military is to fight wars.

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27-07-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:45 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 01:34 PM)Emma Wrote:  Can you provide information on what procedures are being done for surgeries 1-3? And are the required? I personally don't currently intend to receive any surgeries- at least not yet, maybe some day.

Typical surgeries for trans women tend to include all or none of the following:
facial feminization surgery
breast augmentation
Vaginoplasty
and on rare occasion- hip augmentation (aka, brazillian butt lift)

Additionally- what is the reason for restricting deployment based on hormone medications? Trans people are capable of engaging in all manner of physical activities (from long distance running to MMA boxing) while on hormones.
For the female to male transformation, the first surgery is the removal of the mammery glands (breast removal). I am not quite sure what the second and third surgery is. I think it involve removal is some of the internal reproductive organs but don't quote me on that. Of course the fourth and fifth surgery is the "installation of new hardware".

As far as the hormone question, I am not a doctor. However, transgenders can still serve in the military in supporting roles. They just can't deploy in combat zones because nothing can guarantee that they will be able to access their prescriptions. How are they going to get their refills in a fighting hole in the mountains of Afghanistan for example. To be honest though, I have no idea what the health risks are for someone if they stop their hormones cold turkey. But I don't imagine it would be good.

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I see- regarding surgeries.

Regarding medications- does the military not have a process in place for providing medications to its soldiers? That seems unlikely.

Trans men can receive hormones in the follow ways:
Quote:How is testosterone administered?
The three main ways of administering testosterone are by injection, by skin patch or gel, and by pill.

Injections:Testosterone is injected into the buttocks or thigh, one to four times per month, depending on dosage. Of all the methods, this one is the least expensive, and in many cases offers the quickest results. Some people who use this method experience fatigue or irritability towards the end of the injection cycle, when testosterone levels are at their lowest.

Skin patch or gel: Both gel and patch, applied daily, are efficient ways to keep testosterone levels stable. When using this method, instructions must be followed carefully to avoid transferring testosterone through physical contact with children or with intimate partners. This method is among the most expensive options.

Pill: Rarely prescribed because it is the least effective in stopping menstrual periods.

Trans women can get their hormones by injections, patch, or pill. Pill is the most common.

You shouldn't stop hormones cold turkey without working with a doctor, but it's not uncommon for trans people to have to go without them because so many are jobless and poor due to stigma associated with being trans.
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27-07-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: Trump bans transgender from military
(27-07-2017 01:59 PM)jason_delisle Wrote:  
(27-07-2017 01:51 PM)Emma Wrote:  Of the days on leave you've listed, that's 201 days on leave, out of 1460 days in a 4 year span- roughly 14%, hardly more than a majority. I'm not saying that that's not significant in said cost/benefit ratio considerations- but it's worth noting. Presumably, aside from the 179 days of Marine Corps training, they should have roughly 3 years of active duty service.
Perhaps "majority" may not have been accurate so you are correct. However, 6 months of leave is a long duration. But the non-deployment thing is a big concern for the military. After all, the purpose of the military is to fight wars.

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I'm still not convinced of the need to block deployment. But as I understand, the military leadership was still reviewing the new policy. I don't disagree with you that the military can and should decide not to allow enlistees with specific medical conditions, however, I'm extremely skeptical that being trans is or should be one of those conditions.
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