Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
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29-12-2016, 09:09 PM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
Well, that "strong union" may not last much longer. Even the Republicans are loathe to fuck with cops and firemen, at least to this point, but that won't last. You can only stick it to teachers and social workers for so long before you have to go after the big fish, which is the pensions the cops and firemen get after only 20 years.

And, people who work in jobs protected by public sector unions are exactly the people who are going to get fucked here.

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30-12-2016, 12:37 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
(29-12-2016 09:09 PM)BnW Wrote:  Well, that "strong union" may not last much longer. Even the Republicans are loathe to fuck with cops and firemen, at least to this point, but that won't last. You can only stick it to teachers and social workers for so long before you have to go after the big fish, which is the pensions the cops and firemen get after only 20 years.

And, people who work in jobs protected by public sector unions are exactly the people who are going to get fucked here.

Difficult to say. If Trump's economical plan based on protectionism and business retention is enacted and somehow works to expectation, this will strengthen immensly unions as the threat of delocalisation subside. Which in turn may lead to unions become more agressive and bold when it comes to their demands in terms of better work condition, employment stability and higher wages. To maintain a more business favorable environment then what we have at the moment (lots of competition, but weaker unions in a free market vs lower competition but stronger unions in a more protectionist market both produce an equaly favorable environment for business) Trump's governement would have to support businesses and crack down on unions by declaring their strikes illegal or forcing settlements that aren't favorable to them or even dissolving the most militant ones. If this sounds like good old fascism, it's because it's exactly what it is. Trump's plan is an old solution to an old problem. We have already witnessed such a plan enacted in the past and seen it's concequences. Thus, we can predict how it should turn out today with a reasonnable level of confidence. We just need to see just how successful Trump will at producing a protectionist market out of a free market. The rest of the script is already pretty much pre-written.

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30-12-2016, 02:32 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
Though I have never been a great fan of unionism I can see the need for it in some cases.

What chances of actual civil unrest, at least in terms of demos, do you guys see? Americans might be rather prone to groupthink and mob rule in some situations but I wonder if they are in the same gullible state as the German citizens just before the last war?

Trump seems to be building a similar sort of capitalist/elitist heirachy that Hitler railed against to get support. Perhaps events will be more like Russia's October revolution?

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30-12-2016, 06:05 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
(30-12-2016 12:37 AM)epronovost Wrote:  Difficult to say. If Trump's economical plan based on protectionism and business retention is enacted and somehow works to expectation, this will strengthen immensly unions as the threat of delocalisation subside.

I wouldn't bank on that. The Republican agenda includes several initiatives designed to break union power. And, public service unions, like those that serve the cops, are going to be in real trouble. It's one thing to have unions that stand up against private employers. Unions that negotiate against tax payers are already in trouble. I seriously doubt that a Trump presidency is going to change that. Look at what Walker did in Wisconsin as an example.

(30-12-2016 02:32 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  Though I have never been a great fan of unionism I can see the need for it in some cases.

What chances of actual civil unrest, at least in terms of demos, do you guys see? Americans might be rather prone to groupthink and mob rule in some situations but I wonder if they are in the same gullible state as the German citizens just before the last war?

Trump seems to be building a similar sort of capitalist/elitist heirachy that Hitler railed against to get support. Perhaps events will be more like Russia's October revolution?

Couple of things.

First, I never understand the comments along the lines of "I have never been a great fan of unionism". What are you against? Individuals being able to collectively bargain against massive corporate entities to secure better wages and rights for themselves? Or, do you resent 40 hour work weeks, paid vacations, weekends off, health benefits, better safety, etc. etc. etc.? Because, ALL of that is the result of labor unions who fought bitterly for it at the turn of the last century.

Second, can we please stop with the Nazi era comparisons already? Trump is a small handed, narrow minded, infantile asshole but he's not Hitler. He's not invading neighboring countries to get us breathing room and he's not putting people into camps and killing them. We still will have 2 other branches of government. I get that there are a contingent of idiots who follow them, but they are a small minority of people. When people compare him to the Nazis and Hitler, they really minimize what the Nazis actually did and who they were, and make it that much more difficult to spot the real threats when they arrive.

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30-12-2016, 07:58 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
(30-12-2016 02:32 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  ... gullible state as the German citizens just before the last war?

Trump seems to be building a similar sort of capitalist/elitist heirachy that Hitler railed against to get support. Perhaps events will be more like Russia's October revolution?

Germans werent gullible, but rather, desperate, frustrated and disappointed by things as they were in the late 20s/early 30s. Of course that makes you more susceptible to promises.

October revolution in the US? No.fucking.way. Russia by 1917 (and it was already by 1905) was completely rotten, beyond any chance of recovery. The US is not even operating in the same league.

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30-12-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
(30-12-2016 06:05 AM)BnW Wrote:  Couple of things.

First, I never understand the comments along the lines of "I have never been a great fan of unionism". What are you against? Individuals being able to collectively bargain against massive corporate entities to secure better wages and rights for themselves? Or, do you resent 40 hour work weeks, paid vacations, weekends off, health benefits, better safety, etc. etc. etc.? Because, ALL of that is the result of labor unions who fought bitterly for it at the turn of the last century.

Second, can we please stop with the Nazi era comparisons already? Trump is a small handed, narrow minded, infantile asshole but he's not Hitler. He's not invading neighboring countries to get us breathing room and he's not putting people into camps and killing them. We still will have 2 other branches of government. I get that there are a contingent of idiots who follow them, but they are a small minority of people. When people compare him to the Nazis and Hitler, they really minimize what the Nazis actually did and who they were, and make it that much more difficult to spot the real threats when they arrive.

QFT

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30-12-2016, 08:22 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
(30-12-2016 06:05 AM)BnW Wrote:  ...I never understand the comments along the lines of "I have never been a great fan of unionism". What are you against? Individuals being able to collectively bargain against massive corporate entities to secure better wages and rights for themselves? Or, do you resent 40 hour work weeks, paid vacations, weekends off, health benefits, better safety, etc. etc. etc.? Because, ALL of that is the result of labor unions who fought bitterly for it at the turn of the last century.

For the most part, I agree with this, but unions also have their dark side. I will give just one anecdotal example of what is generally known as "featherbedding":

I used to work for a company that manufactured aircraft instruments, many of which were sold to the US government and its allies. Once, one of our engineers traveled down to Texas to install and test a prototype instrument in an aircraft. The installation involved connecting a cable or two and tightening some screws. Our engineer could have installed the instrument in just a few minutes. Instead, he had to wait an hour or so for someone in the local electrician's union to come and connect the cable, and then another hour or so for someone in the mechanic's union to come and tighten the screws. This is admittedly an extreme example, but it really happened, and I'm sure similar things continue to happen. Unions have been known to go above and beyond the call of duty to "protect" jobs that no longer have any reason for existing. And something isn't right about that.

On the other hand, our own Governor Walker (Wisconsin) went out of his way to bust the teacher's union (and other unions for public employees) in our state, thereby undercutting one of the main supports for the Democratic party, and making it easier for Republicans to take over the state government. I don't think this was just a coincidence.

There is plenty of dirty pool on both sides.
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30-12-2016, 09:00 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
All monolithic entities have their darkside and unions certainly are no exception. There is a lot of unsavory things about unions. But, there are at least as many unsavory things about large corporate employers and government. Unions, for all their faults - and they admittedly have many - are the last line of defense against taking away the few rights working people have left.

I'm a white collar guy and unions don't protect me at all. And, I have almost zero rights as an employee. I can't be fired due to race, sex, religion, etc., basically the 7 deadly sins of employment discrimination. But, beyond that, I can be fired for pretty much any reason. Boss didn't make his numbers this quarter? BnW can be fired to make that up. Boss has a bad hair day and has a bug up his ass about it? BnW can be out the door by lunch time. Boss fucked up royally and needs someone else to blame? Bye bye BnW. That's how it works in the world of white collar employees, and it sucks ass. And, the few rights I do have, I have because of unions.

So, sure, unions are just as capable of sleazy tactics and large scale corruption as any other large entity. I think that is indisputable. But, that doesn't mean they are completely unnecessary.

Btw, I draw a distinction between public sector unions and private sector unions. Public sector unions are not negotiating against large corporate entities, they are negotiating against ordinary tax payers and that, I think, creates a very different dynamic.

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30-12-2016, 10:01 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
@Gloucester

I don't see any similarities with Russian revolution. No soviets in sight, no weak, temporary gov trying to make country stay at war. No Kerenski, no Lenin, no promises of land and peace. Not even small party of conspirators who will make a coup and then call it revolution.

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30-12-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: Trump's new pick for labor secretary just doesn't get why workers need breaks
(30-12-2016 07:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(30-12-2016 02:32 AM)Gloucester Wrote:  ... gullible state as the German citizens just before the last war?

Trump seems to be building a similar sort of capitalist/elitist heirachy that Hitler railed against to get support. Perhaps events will be more like Russia's October revolution?

Germans werent gullible, but rather, desperate, frustrated and disappointed by things as they were in the late 20s/early 30s. Of course that makes you more susceptible to promises.

October revolution in the US? No.fucking.way. Russia by 1917 (and it was already by 1905) was completely rotten, beyond any chance of recovery. The US is not even operating in the same league.

Thanks for the corrections, Deesse. Yes, susceptible is a far better word. And my analogues were stretched too far, human nature being as it is there will be some similarities in any nation under pressures they feel they have little control over.

I'll get me coat then . . .

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