Trump scares the shit outta me
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23-08-2015, 10:03 PM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(23-08-2015 09:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 09:42 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Sure; they knew each other. Being acquaintances who share an ancestor six generations ago isn't any more significant a connection than being acquaintances who share an ancestor ten generations ago, or twenty... If they didn't share a surname nobody would think of them as anything other than wealthy politicians who happened to be loose contemporaries.

You've got family around Montreal, right? Even odds are we're fifth or sixth cousins, for all the significance that has!
Shocking

They weren't acquaintances, they were family.

That you think that their connection is meaningless is unimportant, they didn't.

Maybe so; I've honestly never seen anything in any reading on either man to indicate they held each other in any particular familial regard.

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23-08-2015, 11:54 PM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(23-08-2015 03:52 PM)Alla Wrote:  I have a better question. There are strangers/homeless people. Let's say some of them decided to live in my house without asking me. They want to have a better quality of life. I feel compassion for them but they can not live in my house without my permission.
By what moral will I deny them that?
Now you're getting it. I think there is no real moral way out here. If you want to live in your house *without* those homeless people who have nowhere else to go, you have to just kick them out and *not care* that they have no other option.

But the homeless people in your house situation is not *actually* what is happening, it is an analogy. Let's rather look at what is actually happening.

Quote:Jesus said: poor are always going to be with you. We can't help all poor.
We can try our best but we will never help all poor.
Not help all the poor or actively push them down? I'm *pretty sure* Jesus would have a problem with that.

Quoting from the article:
Quote:The illegal immigrant population of the United States in 2008 was estimated by the Center for Immigration Studies to be about 12 million people, down from 12.5 million people in 2007.[4] Other estimates range from 7 to 30 million.[5][6][7]
This is a huge number of people. Simply kicking them out is going to have a huge human cost as well as an economic impact. There's no simple solution here.

Quote:In 2012 the Obama administration spent $18 billion on immigration enforcement programs; more than the budget for all other federal law enforcement agencies that year combined.[3]
So yeah, this whole idea that democrats want more immigrants so they can vote in their nefarious schemes? Not so much.

Quote:Most immigrants who come to America come for better opportunities for employment, a much greater degree of freedom, avoidance of political oppression, the opportunity to rejoin with loved ones, for the prospect of providing better lives for themselves and their family, and for the educational and medical services benefits.[45]

Causes by region

In general illegal immigrants from Mexico and Central America come for economic reasons, but also sometimes due to political oppression.[45]

From Asia, they come for economic reasons but some come involuntarily as indentured servants or sex slaves.[45] From Sub-Saharan Africa, they come for economic activities and there is some chance of slave trade.[45] From Eastern Europe, they come for economic activities and to rejoin family already in the United States. However, there are also some who come involuntarily who work in the sex industry.[45] From the Middle East, they come for economic activities or to rejoin family already in the United States.
You can prevent them from coming, but you can't claim it as a moral action too, IMO.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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24-08-2015, 06:45 AM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2015 09:39 AM by Dom.)
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(23-08-2015 11:54 PM)morondog Wrote:  This is a huge number of people. Simply kicking them out is going to have a huge human cost as well as an economic impact. There's no simple solution here.

That is what surprises me about Trump - as business man he should be acutely aware of the economic consequences, especially since he himself has tons of South American staff. Much of Vegas runs on South American staff, as do the majority of large Hotels. Agriculture also relies heavily on these immigrants.

The economic consequences of removing millions of workers and consumers would be staggering.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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24-08-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(24-08-2015 06:45 AM)Dom Wrote:  That is what surprises me about Trump - as business man he should be acutely aware of the economic consequences, especially since he himself has tons of South American staff. Much of Vegas runs on South American staff, as do the majority of large Hotels. Agriculture also relies heavily on these immigrants.

The economic consequences of removing millions of workers and consumers would be staggering.

He's a clown but I'd be hard pressed to believe he doesn't know that it is totally impractical. Outlining long-term, nuanced approaches ot the problem doesn't get you support from yahoos like Alla though. American politics, like television, is aimed at the lowest common denominator so it is all slogans and sound bites and pandering to ignorance and fear.

Not that I've become cynical about it or anything.

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24-08-2015, 07:08 AM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(23-08-2015 10:03 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(23-08-2015 09:47 PM)Chas Wrote:  They weren't acquaintances, they were family.

That you think that their connection is meaningless is unimportant, they didn't.

Maybe so; I've honestly never seen anything in any reading on either man to indicate they held each other in any particular familial regard.

Ken Burns's film, The Roosevelts: An Intimate History, covers it well.

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24-08-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
One thing that I find amusing his lack of forethought connecting various rants.

How does one know what the majority of a group is if the person claims the number is unknown for how many people there are in that group by potentially double or triple the thought number.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-08-2015, 08:40 AM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(24-08-2015 06:55 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(24-08-2015 06:45 AM)Dom Wrote:  That is what surprises me about Trump - as business man he should be acutely aware of the economic consequences, especially since he himself has tons of South American staff. Much of Vegas runs on South American staff, as do the majority of large Hotels. Agriculture also relies heavily on these immigrants.

The economic consequences of removing millions of workers and consumers would be staggering.

He's a clown but I'd be hard pressed to believe he doesn't know that it is totally impractical. Outlining long-term, nuanced approaches ot the problem doesn't get you support from yahoos like Alla though. American politics, like television, is aimed at the lowest common denominator so it is all slogans and sound bites and pandering to ignorance and fear.

Not that I've become cynical about it or anything.

Alabama already tried that plan Mr Trump and you were among the people deriding it when it failed

Quote:After Mitt Romney lost the 2012 presidential election, strategists in his own party blamed his support for the Alabama attrition policy. Those critics included Donald Trump.

“He had a crazy policy of self-
deportation, which was maniacal,” Trump told reporter Ronald Kessler after the election. “It sounded as bad as it was.”

It's shit like this that makes me think he is just doing this on some kind of crazy rich guy bet ala trading places.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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24-08-2015, 09:39 AM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(22-08-2015 11:20 AM)Dom Wrote:  That guy truly scares me.

He apparently is a very viable candidate and it is quite possible that he will be president.

He is not a viable candidate. Over 50% of the GOP actively poll that they will not vote for him. He cannot win the nomination. He might survive as a bunch of smaller candidates drop out, but their votes will go to other candidates, not him. What we're seeing right now is a combination of how creepy a sizable minority of GOP voters are and just basic statistics of splitting polling results over 17 candidates. Each of them is vying for 6%.

Personally, I love Trump running. He has done a great job showing just how putrid 15ish% of American voters are, and he has a non-zero chance of actually splitting the party.

As much as Fox hates him, the can't seem to stop giving him air time and feeding the beast. The Tea Party reminds me of The Dark Knight where the Mafia turned to the Joker in a time of need, and ultimately lost control of him. I'm just sitting here with the popcorn. Popcorn
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24-08-2015, 10:22 AM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
(24-08-2015 09:39 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  ... He has done a great job showing just how putrid 15ish% of American voters are ...

The racist roots of US culture are still deep - as they would be only a few decades removed from legislatively enforced (and clumsy) de-racist reforms, and less than 2 centuries removed from outright racist slavery. Trump gets acclaim for flouting "political correctness" but what that 15% love him for is the raw racism they believe in but could never say aloud themselves.

Thankfully it's only about 15%. The roots are rotting away. Slowly, but inexorably.
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25-08-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: Trump scares the shit outta me
Trump is kind of what I've come to expect out of the Republican Party.

Now mind you I see myself as an Independent. I have positions and views that fall in most of the major parties. I fear every time an Election comes around. But most of the time I don't vote.
I know, I know "You need to vote it you want a say."

But when I have to choose between a Shit Taco or a Turd Sandwich I feel my vote would only leave me with bad taste in my mouth.

Anyway I'm not so much mad at Trump, as I am with the people that are all for him. To many people at work seem excited about him. And I feel they're all falling for the same Dog & Pony show that come out every four years. It makes me sick to think they are excited about building a multi-billion dollar wall with our tax dollars. When the school systems are going threw withdraws. I hate the soft ball questions at these debates. I hate the dodged questions. I hate that people can get better states for a Fantasy Football leage then they can on a person that is going to lead the "free world".

Even if there was a candidate that I could really get behind, that I felt would fulfill the needs of the people of this country it makes no difference. I like Bernie Sanders. But Hillary has more money, so she's going to go farther.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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